Last edit by: Ocn Vw 1K
In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.
All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.
Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.
This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.
Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.
While respectful disagreement of a posted view is allowed, dont call-out posters to prove their points. FlyerTalk has never required discussion standards at the level of a Ph.D. dissertation defense, or a trial court witness cross-examination.
After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.
Especially important in this time of pandemic, when normal life and travel have been upended: please take regular breaks from the thread.
Please stay healthy,
your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.
COVID-19: Lounge thread for thoughts, concerns and questions
#196




Join Date: Apr 2007
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In a week's time let's watch until other European countries like France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, UK and others need to act in a similar way since case numbers grow too fast and hospital capacities will mandate stricter measures everywhere unfortunately.
#197


Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
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Posts: 7,190
Exactly this scenario has been predicted in this thread several weeks ago. Now once we are having on hands repetition of (almost) Wuhan style lockdown in a democratic society, we will see how much load healthcare system can sustain and if it is possible to mitigate/delay the spread using these measures.
#198



Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Barcelona
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There is no official travel warning for any German district as of yet. In stark contrast, Italy is severely restricting any travel to & from & within many Northern territories including Milan and the heart of its economy and a quarter of its population until April 3 for now.
In a week's time let's watch until other European countries like France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, UK and others need to act in a similar way since case numbers grow too fast and hospital capacities will mandate stricter measures everywhere unfortunately.
In a week's time let's watch until other European countries like France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, UK and others need to act in a similar way since case numbers grow too fast and hospital capacities will mandate stricter measures everywhere unfortunately.
It will likely be ineffective. Hopefully other countries will learn from that what public health authorities and experts have been saying all along - travel restrictions are unnecessary and ineffective.
#199


Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Virginia City Highlands
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#200

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
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Posts: 9,524
How can you say that travel restrictions are unnecessary and ineffective when -for instance- 85% of the Covid-19 cases in the Netherlands can be traced back to Northern Italy? Had we had travel restrictions since early February the Covid-19 spread would most likely have been much, much lower.
#201



Join Date: Nov 2018
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How can you say that travel restrictions are unnecessary and ineffective when -for instance- 85% of the Covid-19 cases in the Netherlands can be traced back to Northern Italy? Had we had travel restrictions since early February the Covid-19 spread would most likely have been much, much lower.
#202



Join Date: Nov 2018
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I know its from the quote, but I really take issue with highly infectious virus. Measles, smallpox, these are highly infectious, R0 up above 7. Corona is down around bad influenza levels of infectiousness, R0 of 3.8 in the highest estimate.
#203
FlyerTalk Evangelist




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Thanks for posting. I had seen this earlier today. Just in case people wonder why a math nerd is someone to give credence, she is actually a Biomechanics Engineer with a Biology PhD. In her Twitter feed she retweets many other people who have relevant backgrounds and are posting important insights.
#204

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: HKG • Ex SFO, NYC
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this set the differences between HK SG TW and the rest. They trace their cases and kept testing.
Plus school is suspended and everyone wears mask when they are out. Especially in TW where healthcare costs almost nothing, people goes to their GP when they have a slight cough.
Plus school is suspended and everyone wears mask when they are out. Especially in TW where healthcare costs almost nothing, people goes to their GP when they have a slight cough.
#205




Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
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Posts: 7,809
Average temperatures should be looked at seriously by researchers, to see if there's any correlation between the outbreak intensity & the region's temperatures.
I guess I could do it myself, with all the data at hand. Just looking at the data in a rudimentary fashion, it looks encouraging (for the northern Hemisphere....maybe not as positive for New Zealand and parts of Australia...)
<snip>
If I have some time over the weekend I could analyze this more in depth...
I guess I could do it myself, with all the data at hand. Just looking at the data in a rudimentary fashion, it looks encouraging (for the northern Hemisphere....maybe not as positive for New Zealand and parts of Australia...)
<snip>
If I have some time over the weekend I could analyze this more in depth...
Here's a quick look at temperatures of the hot-spots around the world.
It's more for discussion purpose, than anything else. Plenty of inconsistencies for sure, but interesting never-the-less.
It seems interesting [at the very least] that almost ALL major outbreaks happened (and are happening) in geographical areas with low mean temperatures.
Apart from the Diamond Princess and California, there doesn't seem to be any major outbreaks in warmer "climates".
If there is a distinct correlation between low temperatures and COVID-19s susceptibility to spreading, there could be a reasonable conclusion that when temperatures rise, the spread will slow and potentially cease. We can only hope.
Countries selected are the top 10 listings by confirmed cases from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Interesting is that there are no countries in the Southern Hemisphere at the top of the list (Northern Hemisphere = Winter, Southern Hemisphere = Summer)
Notes:
- Temperature sources are average mean temperatures January and February taken from https://www.timeanddate.com They are not actual 2020 numbers, but averages from 1985-2015
- Temperatures are mean-temperatures for January, February, and March, in C, showing daily low and high
- Region/cities of each country were chosen based on various factors, but mainly because they seem to represent their respective countries major outbreaks
- There seems to be a misconception that reported, confirmed cases represent actual and accurate current infections. This is FAR from the truth. Every country handles the criteria for testing differently, and there is a also a lack of testing kits. There is a significant delay in the actual number of infections vs. the reported cases.
Confirmed Cases by Country, Territory, or Conveyance
(taken around 9am, March 8, 2020)

1) CHINA; Wuhan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E...mainland_China

SOUTH KOREA; Daegu
Most cases (~75%) are in Daegu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...in_South_Korea

IRAN; Qom
Limited information, but Qom believed to be a major source of the outbreak, especially early on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...tbreak_in_Iran

ITALY; Milan
Capital of the Lombardy region
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...break_in_Italy

FRANCE; Creil
As of 2 March 2020, 67 people were infected by COVID-19 in the Hauts-de-France region. This figure, the highest in France, was linked to a major cluster originating in the city of Creil, in the Oise, whose source remains unknown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...reak_in_France

GERMANY; Dsseldorf
North Rhine-Westphalias capital and close proximity to Especially affected areas, as defined by the Robert Koch Institute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...eak_in_Germany

SPAIN; Madrid
Spread out quite well across the country. Madrid = Capital.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...break_in_Spain

JAPAN; Sapporo and Tokyo
Japan is interesting; most cases are listed in northern, colder Hokkaido prefecture. But that is the whole prefecture not a city. Sapporo is included as the capital of Hokkaido, and Tokyo is included as it also has a high number of cases, but is more temperate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...break_in_Japan
Sapporo, then Tokyo


USA; Seattle and NYC
Washington currently has the highest number of cases and deaths out of any state in the country,...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c...hington_(state)
NYC has the highest number of new cases two days in a row (as of March 8).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_c..._United_States
Seattle, then NYC


Anomalies:
- Diamond Princess
- California
Diamond Princess
(Officially 696 cases, 6 deaths)
It has been called a petridish and an incubator for COVID-19; the close [proximity] living conditions, the buffet-style food consumption, the centralized air-conditioning, the potentially unsanitary standards of the crew, etc. could all have contributed to the large number of infections.
California:
Needs further investigation. A few cases from Diamond Princess, but plenty of unrelated cases.
Remains one of the anomalies.
Last edited by narvik; Mar 8, 2020 at 8:12 am Reason: small corrections
#206

Join Date: Jan 2011
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#207
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Dec 2006
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#208

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,359
It receives wide and popular supports from scholars and common people alike and won debates and challenges over the years using reason rather than belief (so China does not need a Thomas Aquinas). "A person studying Confucianism" (儒家) is equivalent to the term "A scholar" in all Chinese societies whether democratic or authoritative. The most notorious know-best Daddy the Qin Shi Huang Emperor is the one who burned all the Confucian books and scholars that he can find. It is the nature of the philosophy that helps an effective authoritarian (SG could be an example arguably), and hurts the bad authoritarian (Qin Emperor) . So it has a net promotional effect.
To be clear: I'm not suggesting one approach is better than the other, but just different. Again, to reiterate, absent of a Gov't edict, I steadfastly believe in each person's right to make his/her decision that is best for his/her situation and family.
I'm going to _try_ to be less active on this thread: this thread was extremely valuable over the last two months since COVID-19 was really such an unknown...and most governments were minimising threats...I think that will become less and less the case as the pandemic progresses.
#209
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Dec 2006
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In other news, Matthew Smith of Wuhan Princess semi-fame appears to be on the way back to the US. Last few tweets are from Narita.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mjswhitebread
https://mobile.twitter.com/mjswhitebread
#210
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Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
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well, anecdotal evidence is often not particularly meaningful: I was on an AS flight from LAX a week ago and someone three rows ahead of me caught every 30ish seconds for about half an hour. We were not diverted, no call for a doctor aboard was made, the FAs didnt put on hazmat suits, no one was reseated, no face mask was forced upon or offered to the offender. Guess we Americans have heard coughing fits before, too. 




