AM/MPO treatment of dropped segments and QR sharp redemption practices
Jul 13, 2015 | 12:40 pm
#1
Original Poster
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,033
AM/MPO treatment of dropped segments and QR sharp redemption practices
Last night I spied some availability to complete my Buenos Aires redemption next year. I was planning to go there via QR/DOH and come back with BA/LHR. Using BAEC/QFFFP, I observed QR is stingy with availability and BA only releases their availability via 355 days (I’m worried about losing out to AAdvantage members who can book one-way 360 days out).
At 10PM I called Tsuen Wan and the agent (who did not offer his name) managed to piece together the itinerary I wanted after 30 minutes of talk time (excluding wait time), in redemption J for two:
HKG-(CX)xDOH-(QR)xGRU-(QR)oEZE-(JJ)xGIG-(BA)oLHR-(CX)HKG
QR GRU-EZE is artificial – for some reason I can’t redeem DOH-EZE directly but since this is an OW redemption I have stopovers to share.
I plugged the itinerary into gcmap while he was working – I realise I’m just 322 miles into Zone 12 of the OneWorld redemption chart http://www.asiamiles.com/am/en/redeem/charts#4, and there was an opportunity to use an open jaw to move down to Zone 11. I asked for EZE-GIG in JJ to be changed to an open jaw, and I will pick up the EZE-GIG flight by Avios (being OW-OW I will be able to check-through and may even retain protection)
“No sir, you are not allowed two OW partners plus CX/KA. This itinerary cannot be redeemed.”
“But you allow me three OW partners plus CX?”
“Yes sir. JJ must stay in”
I searched and re-read the rules:
“This awards chart is applicable when you redeem a round-trip award ticket with an itinerary which covers:
• Two oneworld alliance airlines, where Cathay Pacific or Dragonair is not included; or
• Three or more oneworld alliance airlines when Cathay Pacific or Dragonair is included.”
I wasn’t convinced. I quickly Whatsapped two other FTers. They all quickly replied the rule should be interpreted as two OW carriers whether CX/KA was included or not.
That was my understanding too – although I didn’t recollect it before the end of the phone call, my first OW redemption was precisely two OW carriers (JL and AA) plus CX . And that redemption also required supervisor intervention for different reasons.
I told the agent I respectfully disagreed with his interpretation and asked he check with a supervisor. He refused the request.
At that point I saw little point asking for a hold either. I decided to HUACA.
On reflection I should have taken his name.
The DOH-GRU availability on QR was gone by the time I managed to get another agent. The availability on BAEC/QFFFP for the flight fluctuated between 2 and 0 all night, prompting me to call Marco Polo at 12 midnight – 1am, 2:00am, 4:00am and 5:30am (I'm expecting a whtf are you doing calling our call centres like that email from Steve Rackstraw). Both Tsuen Wan and Manila agents were able to see the availability but unable to book it, or claiming the availability has just disappeared right in front of them. I swore all sorts of death threats to the first agent every time the later agents came up empty on the DOH-GRU flight.
I finally had a longer sleep until 7:30am. Saw the availability on BAEC again and called Tsuen Wan, can see but unable to book again. Decided to try Manila one last time before going to work, surprising the agent was able book the itinerary when his Tsuen Wan counterparts can’t.
This agent couldn’t book me QR GRU-EZE, but was able to offer me a JJ GRU-AEP which I accepted in lieu (the first Tsuen Wan agent didn’t proactively offer me this).
Since we’ve just passed 08:00 I saw a new BA flight going straight from EZE skipping the GIG transit becoming available. The agent was unable to include the BA flight but he held the itinerary til tomorrow 17:00 for me to try later. One more HUACA and I had the whole HKG-(CX)xDOH-(QR)xGRU-(JJ)oAEP/EZE-(BA)oLHR-(CX)HKG itinerary sent to ticketing successfully.
The missus's took a bit longer - CX sent an email to JJ:
"**** PLEASE REINSTATE FLT JJ8008/1XOCT ***
*** PROTECTION OCCURRED AFTER TICKETING ****"
Ticket issued a day after mine's.
At 10PM I called Tsuen Wan and the agent (who did not offer his name) managed to piece together the itinerary I wanted after 30 minutes of talk time (excluding wait time), in redemption J for two:
HKG-(CX)xDOH-(QR)xGRU-(QR)oEZE-(JJ)xGIG-(BA)oLHR-(CX)HKG
QR GRU-EZE is artificial – for some reason I can’t redeem DOH-EZE directly but since this is an OW redemption I have stopovers to share.
I plugged the itinerary into gcmap while he was working – I realise I’m just 322 miles into Zone 12 of the OneWorld redemption chart http://www.asiamiles.com/am/en/redeem/charts#4, and there was an opportunity to use an open jaw to move down to Zone 11. I asked for EZE-GIG in JJ to be changed to an open jaw, and I will pick up the EZE-GIG flight by Avios (being OW-OW I will be able to check-through and may even retain protection)
“No sir, you are not allowed two OW partners plus CX/KA. This itinerary cannot be redeemed.”
“But you allow me three OW partners plus CX?”
“Yes sir. JJ must stay in”
I searched and re-read the rules:
“This awards chart is applicable when you redeem a round-trip award ticket with an itinerary which covers:
• Two oneworld alliance airlines, where Cathay Pacific or Dragonair is not included; or
• Three or more oneworld alliance airlines when Cathay Pacific or Dragonair is included.”
I wasn’t convinced. I quickly Whatsapped two other FTers. They all quickly replied the rule should be interpreted as two OW carriers whether CX/KA was included or not.
That was my understanding too – although I didn’t recollect it before the end of the phone call, my first OW redemption was precisely two OW carriers (JL and AA) plus CX . And that redemption also required supervisor intervention for different reasons.
I told the agent I respectfully disagreed with his interpretation and asked he check with a supervisor. He refused the request.
At that point I saw little point asking for a hold either. I decided to HUACA.
On reflection I should have taken his name.
The DOH-GRU availability on QR was gone by the time I managed to get another agent. The availability on BAEC/QFFFP for the flight fluctuated between 2 and 0 all night, prompting me to call Marco Polo at 12 midnight – 1am, 2:00am, 4:00am and 5:30am (I'm expecting a whtf are you doing calling our call centres like that email from Steve Rackstraw). Both Tsuen Wan and Manila agents were able to see the availability but unable to book it, or claiming the availability has just disappeared right in front of them. I swore all sorts of death threats to the first agent every time the later agents came up empty on the DOH-GRU flight.
I finally had a longer sleep until 7:30am. Saw the availability on BAEC again and called Tsuen Wan, can see but unable to book again. Decided to try Manila one last time before going to work, surprising the agent was able book the itinerary when his Tsuen Wan counterparts can’t.
This agent couldn’t book me QR GRU-EZE, but was able to offer me a JJ GRU-AEP which I accepted in lieu (the first Tsuen Wan agent didn’t proactively offer me this).
Since we’ve just passed 08:00 I saw a new BA flight going straight from EZE skipping the GIG transit becoming available. The agent was unable to include the BA flight but he held the itinerary til tomorrow 17:00 for me to try later. One more HUACA and I had the whole HKG-(CX)xDOH-(QR)xGRU-(JJ)oAEP/EZE-(BA)oLHR-(CX)HKG itinerary sent to ticketing successfully.
The missus's took a bit longer - CX sent an email to JJ:
"**** PLEASE REINSTATE FLT JJ8008/1XOCT ***
*** PROTECTION OCCURRED AFTER TICKETING ****"
Ticket issued a day after mine's.
I dunno if I've just been a victim of this change in management.
I added domestic LAN Argentina sectors to the CX-QR booking I previously worked on http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...l#post23788425
I worked with a quite efficient Tsuen Wan agent, got the LA flights locked in, had the itin read back to me (my wife and I were doing four-eyed checks on the amendments in real time on MMB), had the miles quoted (190,000 no change), gave my credit card for the US$120 fees and new YQ, hung up and had the MMBs (with 00:00 deadlines) printed out and checked again (OK). Received the itins by email (OK again) and went to bed.
E-tickets were issued a day later. I somehow received a 30,000 mile refund, no idea why. On investigation I found my QR DOH-GRU segment dropped.
I called two Tsuen Wan agents asking for an explanation. In my previous experience they have either fixed it after prompting (for CX) or in one case without prompting (for JJ). I was hoping someone will quickly confirm the error and confirm a correction is necessary.
The agents stonewalled:
1. The booking agent made a notation saying I asked for it during the change call
2. QR took the availability back when the tickets were replaced
3. In any case nothing can be done cos there're no more seats now
4. I created an illegal booking, so the agent had to create an open jaw
Gobstopped. I rebutted each item as the agents made them
R1. I made no requests of the sort. I did not even use the term "cancel" throughout the call at all (I wasn't cancelling anything). The agent quoted me back 190,000 miles no change - she should've quoted 160,000 if she understood me to be dropping the QR DOH-GRU. And I shouldn't see QR DOH-GRU after the call if my intended action was to cancel that segment.
R2. Not my problem is it? CX ticketing shouldn't have let QR do that.
R3. i. Talk to QR and get the seats re-released ii. Buy it out of their revenue (still I9 right now) iii. See you in small claims for the cash DOH-GRU price.
R4. Explain to me how illegal.
I counted o=4, x=3 and //=1
Your booking agent corrected me to say o=3, x=4 and //=1
Is substitution for o to x allowed? Yes?
Eventually both agents suggested getting the booking agent to call me back.
I sent them a detailed email with the 00:00 MMB printout scanned and the emailed post-booking itin attached.
Total time of calls: 1 hr 30 mins (<10 mins holding time).
I feel like I'm walking out of the playroom...this redemption in total has more S&M than Fifty Shades of Grey.
I added domestic LAN Argentina sectors to the CX-QR booking I previously worked on http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...l#post23788425
I worked with a quite efficient Tsuen Wan agent, got the LA flights locked in, had the itin read back to me (my wife and I were doing four-eyed checks on the amendments in real time on MMB), had the miles quoted (190,000 no change), gave my credit card for the US$120 fees and new YQ, hung up and had the MMBs (with 00:00 deadlines) printed out and checked again (OK). Received the itins by email (OK again) and went to bed.
E-tickets were issued a day later. I somehow received a 30,000 mile refund, no idea why. On investigation I found my QR DOH-GRU segment dropped.
I called two Tsuen Wan agents asking for an explanation. In my previous experience they have either fixed it after prompting (for CX) or in one case without prompting (for JJ). I was hoping someone will quickly confirm the error and confirm a correction is necessary.
The agents stonewalled:
1. The booking agent made a notation saying I asked for it during the change call
2. QR took the availability back when the tickets were replaced
3. In any case nothing can be done cos there're no more seats now
4. I created an illegal booking, so the agent had to create an open jaw
Gobstopped. I rebutted each item as the agents made them
R1. I made no requests of the sort. I did not even use the term "cancel" throughout the call at all (I wasn't cancelling anything). The agent quoted me back 190,000 miles no change - she should've quoted 160,000 if she understood me to be dropping the QR DOH-GRU. And I shouldn't see QR DOH-GRU after the call if my intended action was to cancel that segment.
R2. Not my problem is it? CX ticketing shouldn't have let QR do that.
R3. i. Talk to QR and get the seats re-released ii. Buy it out of their revenue (still I9 right now) iii. See you in small claims for the cash DOH-GRU price.
R4. Explain to me how illegal.
I counted o=4, x=3 and //=1
Your booking agent corrected me to say o=3, x=4 and //=1
Is substitution for o to x allowed? Yes?
Eventually both agents suggested getting the booking agent to call me back.
I sent them a detailed email with the 00:00 MMB printout scanned and the emailed post-booking itin attached.
Total time of calls: 1 hr 30 mins (<10 mins holding time).
I feel like I'm walking out of the playroom...this redemption in total has more S&M than Fifty Shades of Grey.
A few days after the conversation with the two Tsuen Wan agents, the booking agent called me back. Confirmed (2) is the actual case – QR has set an awfully short reissue deadline and ticketing didn’t make it (even though they cancelled old ticket and reissued new ticket within 26 hours).
It sounded a bit like this Aadvantage redemption case http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...l#post22532652 (although CX is the partner whose segment was dropped/taken back).
Asked me for instructions – I reiterated I want my original QR sector back.
I was told by a few FT regulars that this will have to go via CX’s liaison to QR. I saw the segment being added my itinerary but only on Waitlisted status. A helpful FTer (LchChester) said I can expect this to go for as long as two months before succeeding.
But about two weeks into the liaison process the booking agent called me back saying QR has refused to reinstate the segments. Confirmed this has gone to via a supervisor to CX’s QR liaison. She told me also ticketing are looking at rerouting me and asked me for my preferences – I said I believe they will be inclined to send me via LHR on BA (which is readily available in CW) but I’m not happy paying the PSD, if this is the only alternative then CX better think about reimbursing me for the extra taxes I’ll run up. She said ticketing will call me back.
LchChester also opined it is not likely AM will buy tickets out of revenue (c.f. Aeroplan when SQ took away Suites redeemed under accidental open door http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/singa...l#post18918733 and http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-c...l#post18957369 ). I wasn’t sure whether CX’s CoC should be read as taking in on listed flights if they are operating, or if CX only needs to take me to destination in class of travel specified – LchChester opined it’s only the latter.
Over the weekend I (on my own initiative) found QR DOH-EZE (as one trip, with a technical stop in GRU) has opened up two seats in J. LchChester suggested I book it right away, but I was a little disinclined to pre-empt what ticketing may offer.
Ticketing (who identified himself as a ticketing supervisor) returned call yesterday. Said he’s taking over from booking agent now but he’s already been working on my booking since the liaison contact. I asked him whether he already had a routing in mind to propose, he replied he didn’t. I then gave him what I feel to be the “model answer” – the day before booking which required minimal changes in routing and avoided the PSD through LHR issue. Ticketing supervisor suggested he’ll look into it and call me back Wednesday.
Shortly after I saw the segments being confirmed in my itinerary. I sent screenshots to LchChester and wife. Both replied that given the previous reissue debacle I am within my rights to call the supervisor and force-feed him a credit card number to get the reissue done before QR somehow withdrew (“spring-hand” in Chinglish) the seats again.
I called another agent and managed to connect to ticketing supervisor during the call. He said he was inclined to call me anyway. We confirmed the amendments, he confirmed no further cancel/reissue fees will be charged and I gave him a card number.
The tickets were reissued just now (3.5 hours after the second call with ticketing supervisor), and are correct.
Take-aways from this unfortunate episode:
1. When a dropped segment on a partner happens, contact a supervisor and have them contact the liaison to try and get the segment reinstated.
2. Expect no love from AM in terms of buying seats from revenue from partners (though I had better success before when the dropped segments were CX segments). Even when AM is arguably culpable for not meeting a QR deadline.
3. Proactively look for workarounds cos AM won’t.
4. (Specific case of QR) Don’t redeem these in the first place, and certainly don’t reissue them. If you do have to reissue them make very sure AM observes QR’s deadlines – it’s probably 24 hours (the original ticketing and the subsequent reissue were both done in roughly 26 hours after phone confirmation).
QR practices were so sharp from redemption to the redemption deadline and subsequently refusing to reinstate seats I thought were they a bunch of Arabian thieves here – I asked another FTer whether they should be renamed Alibaba Airways at the end of this. I guess that’s why His Excellency is never (and should never be) The Honourable – he’s just an Excellent crook.
I’m not faulting the booking agent or ticketing supervisor specifically, though I feel AM as a whole have been very passive and shown no love even though AM should be aware of QR’s ticketing deadline and accepted some liability for not complying with it. Although we fixed the thing it’s done nothing to improve the adversarial relationship I have with CX.
And I think if I haven’t been spending something like 4 hours a day on FT for the last five years I wouldn’t have acquired the knowledge or made contact with people who did on how to best handle this. If I left AM to its own devices most likely I would’ve ended up with a “free” refund. Or completely misled by the two non-booking agents.
Last edited by percysmith; Jul 13, 2015 at 7:22 pm
Jul 13, 2015 | 1:35 pm
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Little dot in Asia
Programs: AA-PP, HL-DM, MR-LTP, HY-LTG
Posts: 26,008
QR/CX partnership has got to be the worse around.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
Jul 14, 2015 | 12:44 am
#4
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: HK
Posts: 106
QR/CX partnership has got to be the worse around.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
Jul 14, 2015 | 4:27 am
#6
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London/ Hong Kong
Programs: CX SL, BAEC Gold, IHG, Hyatt, Starwood,Ritz Carlton Reward
Posts: 122
QR/CX partnership has got to be the worse around.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
It is virtually impossible to get a cheapish fare from anywhere in Europe to HKG on QR. Cos the connecting flight is on CX, and CX zeroes out the lowest fare classes. If one wants the cheaper booking fare on QR metal, they'd have to overnight on their own dime.
Recently did the exact same routing in V, absolute bargain 699.
Yes, it does mean a slightly longer transit in DOH, but I think I'll do their free 2h city tour, then go back to Al Mourjan lounge before my flight to HK, so it's not entirely dire.
Also, IMHO, it's so worth the short hop from London (where I am based) to start a longhaul Asian journey, even just to avoid the extra APD for premium passengers ex-UK and a much higher base fare on any QR flights ex-LHR!
Oct 11, 2015 | 6:22 pm
#7
Original Poster
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,033
Making initial redemptions of QR-QR is easier now.
I can fly QR-QR for my upcoming HKG-DOH-EZE flight again but I have little stomach to attempt another reissue. Besides both me and missus have obtained annual leave for a CX-QR stopover.
I can fly QR-QR for my upcoming HKG-DOH-EZE flight again but I have little stomach to attempt another reissue. Besides both me and missus have obtained annual leave for a CX-QR stopover.
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 11, 2015 at 8:29 pm
Jun 19, 2017 | 9:42 pm
#9
Original Poster
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,033
Jun 20, 2017 | 2:05 am
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold/OW emerald, QR
Posts: 17,001
Jun 20, 2017 | 2:08 am
#11
Original Poster
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,033
I disagree if QR only allows 12 hours for AA to do it. Effectively QR is banning reissues.
There's a lot of other comments in the discussion to the LL thread - one directing here, for example http://www.australianfrequentflyer.c...ice-77731.html
There's a lot of other comments in the discussion to the LL thread - one directing here, for example http://www.australianfrequentflyer.c...ice-77731.html
Dec 27, 2017 | 8:56 pm
#12
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 147
Anyone has any update on this situation of re-issuing deadline on QR award redemption. Working on a asiamiles OW redemption now and unfortunately would definitely need to re-issue my flights as some award availability open up after I book the first half of the flights.
Cheers.
Cheers.