only "bumping" because its (events/nonguests) at FS hualalai >

4 crescents
kings pond
sea shell
beach tree http://www.fourseasons.com/hualalai/...ach_tree_lawn/ "up to 500 guests" (nonguests??)
palm grove http://www.fourseasons.com/hualalai/...ms/palm_grove/ "Our most popular ceremony venue"

3 main pools
sea shell (family pool next to kids pool) http://www.fourseasons.com/hualalai/...ea_shell_pool/
beach tree
palm grove (adult pool)

north/kumukea beach http://www.fourseasons.com/hualalai/...kumukea_beach/

only sea shell pool is a more recent addition to event venues

kings pond doesnt have lawn? is that the only reason its not a venue?

none of the hualalai regulars have even run into this? or heard about it?
exactly the point of this thread
arriving at property and being told you cant access published offerings
(and exclusive use is much worse than renovation even though same outcome)
(renovations are less often, and rarely last minute)

This is a very interesting topic and a hard question. Restating, the question:

"If I am paying a premium for a room at a 5* facility, it is reasonable to expect premium access to the resources? Where is the line between what is reasonable and unreasonable?"

Let me start with this assumption: 'paying a premium' means >$750/night exclusive of food/beverage. This is at or very near the lowest rack rate for most FS/MO and certainly most if not all Amans.

- I have never had to fight for any resource at an Aman. Ever. The closest I've had to a 'resource problem' at an Aman happened just a few days ago at Amangiri, where I shyly asked a 'prominent NY couple' to move over 1 seat so that my GF and I could sit together at the Chef's table. Everybody gets treated equally. Translation: 'very well' with plenty of resources. I've never had to fight for lounge chairs, umbrellas, spa appointments, anything. I've never had to wait for a seat in a restaurant or bar. We had trouble getting service at the Amanyara beach but that is a cultural staffing problem not easily solved.

- Some non-guests are welcome, even if they chew up some resources. I regularly have to fight for seats at the Bristol Lounge in FS Boston. But the locals are quite entertaining and very fun -- quite the party. Also, the FS staff does a good job at recognizing hotels guests and making an attempt to accommodate. FS NY also.

- Some places cannot even handle 50% occupancy, let alone non-guests or events. This is BAD. FS Maui is the classic example here. I am seeing recent posts that the $100 lounge chair at the pool remains the status quo. And this is AFTER the adult pool was added. I still remember the 2-hour wait for two bar seats. That was followed the next day by finding all, and I mean ALL of the chairs around the pool to be 'reserved', forcing us to put our towel on the cement. I will never return.

- I've had recent disasters with non-guest 'events'. Rosewood Sand Hill is the latest. This place already has an issue on Thursday night, where all of silicon valley descends on the bar for Cougar Night. While a fight, it was possible to get service as a hotel guest. During my last disastrous stay, the place was hosting an 'event' that choked up the entire facility: parking, restaurant, bar, pool, everything. My subsequent, heated, discussion with the GM did not go well, so I've gone back to the FS EPA and its terrible food: "Yeah", he said, "maybe we should do something."

- I've come to dislike 5* hotels that cater to non-guests with trendy bars or restaurants or other. Raffles Singapore comes to mind. This might be a good hotel. The pool is certainly nice, but the rest of the place is choked with tourists, rendering attentive service impossible. Fullerton Bay Hotel has the same problem with the Lantern Bar on the roof. It is cool but the food and service is very bad. FS BW has this issue and the staff doesn't even bother to separate guests from non-guests. MikefromTokyo will disagree, but Park Hyatt Shinjuku has this issue also, although that hotel treats guests and non-guests equally poorly.

Added comment: Too few people at a facility presents a problem also, but that is a different topic. Aman SP comes to mind here. Being the only person in a bar/restaurant is creepy.

im not even saying premium access, but rather access to begin with. especially when talking about resorts of decreasing size. and even outside that, beach hotels that rent the only pool..
what happens when you move the stuff off a chair? i have forgotten to ask this.
exactly what im talking about, especially because nonguests. considering only one restaurant, if pool was full, this is worse than pool bar/etc being crowded with nonguests. (including at least 1 FS, and as you mention fullerton bay.) even if they didnt require event to buyout hotel rooms, they could have shut down hotel. but the thing that becomes absolutely the most unacceptable is not contacting/alerting hotel guests who were booked.
...
examples demonstrating whats possible - service at FS, and design at raffles
PH tokyo did finally get rid of bar fee for guests
exactly the point of thread the thread (examples in first post)

Thank you for this good contribution ^ - regarding specifically poor old Raffles in SIN, I will never ever put my feet into this (gay) unfriendly hotel anymore anyway.

Now with the current economic crisis we should even be more difficult: My latest technique is to call any property at the time of my cancelation deadline regarding special events. And if they have such events I just switch to the competitor or to even a more simple property. It's so easy now - at least in Europe. Do not remember a full house these recent times.

After five trips to Hualalai, we have only rarely seen this and when we have it has not been any imposition. A couple of examples come to mind.
1. We have seen private events on the lawn around Beach Tree, towards the main house. Appeared to be cocktails, impact was substantially zero.

2. Resident's Club bar and grill gets rented out. We didnt plan on going there, so didnt care. They did spread sand across sidewalk, but again, not really a big deal.

Most of these events are similar to managers reception, which is worth stopping by, Wednesday nights usually. Hualalai has enough room this is almost never a problem. The only time of the year that is is somewhat difficult is festive season when the resort gets filled with a lot of folks from the homes at Hualalai and their families.

so im assuming you didnt see 500 nonguests? thats the published maximum. palm grove has no published capacities, not sure what that means. issue is those crescents are room locations, with only two stories so about half ground floor, as opposed to just being outdoor spaces like other venues. (including at hualalai.) families might care about sea shell pool as well.

not listed on FS site IIRC, so not a "published" restaurant/amenity/etc

cancelation deadline can be months in advance, especially over periods where probability of event is highest, and at small properties.

Cancelation deadline "month in advance" , the economy over there must still be quite OK . I would never book at such a property at such a destination.

The crisis must be at least good for something .

Regarding the "small properties" these are in general respectable people who allow events only in case of the event taking the whole property.

youre a fan of aman sri lanka >

i listed examples of aman and alila in first post, and for aman sri lanka only this is published >
galla - 20 guests (10 rooms) requires buyout (29 rooms)
so group could at least be 9 rooms, if not 19 rooms with single occupancy

i would hope that with aman its mainly that they just dont publish the details. i know for example lodge verbier doesnt, even though they did have limits when i booked/stayed, according to their US office.

also, its nice to see amangiri for example steering people. thats luxury, and probably not uncommon. although with amangiri part of issue is room occupancy.

the other question is if/when there is contact etc with guests who have existing bookings.

I literally just returned from Hualalai. They had a 4th of July fireworks bash that was attended by most of the hotel guests, many Hualalai residents and other locals who came for the buffet. That's the closest I've ever come to experience a "crowd" at Hualalai, and it was very manageable.

We went to the main pool to watch the fireworks and were able to find a number of open lounge chairs (we didn't do the buffet, which is where most people were still sitting).

Other than that, I've never experienced a non-guest event at the Hualalai, but from my personal experience at this resort where I'm a frequent guest and my observance of management practices, they would never host an event that would cause significant disruption or inconvenience to guests without a lot of advance notice about the event and its potential impact - last year's Mitsubishi golf tournament was one example.

The resort does host a number of weddings, and parts of the grounds might be reserved for the ceremony, reception, photography, etc., but those disruptions would be temporary.

I recall some flack over Pelosi's visit a couple years ago and "Ahnold's" demands for exclusive use of a pool even further back, and there was one online post at another site where a dinner guest was asked not to take sunset photos because an actress was seated nearby who wanted privacy (a request I would ignore as a hotel guest because I have every right to photograph the sunset and could care less about the actress) - but in summary, nothing in my own Hualalai experiences or online reading would leave me overly concerned about my visit being disrupted.

Four Seasons Maui - that's another matter, and based on my reading of various threads here at FT, I would never stay at that property....the whole place seems like one giant clusterf** and management apparently doles attention to the highest bidder or most stellar celebrity onsite while ignoring everyone else.

just notice? also things like waiving of cancelation fees or service recovery?

adding to OP >

~12 travel agents in ~12 tents for fam trip at amanwana (20 tents) (Anonymous Amanjunkie FTer)

...

definitely not good at trisara, and question at wana is why not require exclusive use for not much more? especially if they were not paying regular rates.

It was just notice - but the event was planned such a long time ago, that I can't imagine they had many bookings before they knew about the tournament. Since you can cancel with 14 days notice, everyone was given the opportunity to cancel without penalty as the warning was communicated to guests well in advance.

The only disruption was to golf - since I don't know of any comparable courses on the Big Island (or anywhere else in Hawai'i for that matter), I'm not sure what service recovery options would be offered to a guest coming for golf.

thats really all that matters, and shows how these things can be handled. thanks.

any other reactions to 500 guest maximum for beach tree lawn? clearly that is nonguests, as otherwise it would be buyout of entire hotel. oh, although they might require a certain number of room nights or room spend, which isnt published, so not entirely nonguests. not sure how direct residence rentals should be factored in.
just noticed the last part, certainly better to see that than not

adding to OP >

http://www.phulay-bay.com/en/Events/Venues
pool lawn, pool lower deck, private beach
(54 rooms)

also at hualalai - "closed the serenity pool for 1 hour" (i received private message) - for a group of guests. that might be a reasonable way of handling some unpublished venues. i wonder if it is at all representative.

There was a report on this board (I couldn't find it using search) of someone who was incensed because the MO Munich closed their rooftop pool area to residents because of a function. The hotel made various attempts to compensate but he was not mollified. I tended to agree with him - in an instance like that where the only outdoor venue of a city hotel gets closed off and you had planned to use it with your children, say, it would be very galling.

Agreed!

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/muni...meeting_space/
lists roof terrace and main restaurant

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/muni...n_roofterrace/
open for in-house guests from 7am-12pm
12pm-10 pm for all guests lunch and dinner are available for non in-house guests

and this is not a typical large city hotel, only 73 rooms