SN starts NYC ops, eff 01JUN2012
Jan 10, 2012 | 9:17 am
#31
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brussels
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 36
4 A333's will be completed before the inaugural flight to JFK on June 1st. A/C will fly to JFK (always), FIH, DLA and NSI (as much as possible) and other routes when possible.
Jan 10, 2012 | 12:38 pm
#32
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BRU-ZRH
Programs: LX HON, BA Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite
Posts: 765
Sometimes it gets a bit ridiculous if you are regularly arriving/departing in Brussels..I just take it easy and use all of the (slow-doored) elevators, trying to match my luggage arrival on the belt.
Jan 10, 2012 | 12:57 pm
#33
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BRU-ZRH
Programs: LX HON, BA Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite
Posts: 765
Jan 11, 2012 | 10:34 am
#34
Join Date: Sep 2004
Programs: LH HON, AF Plat, BA Gold, SPG Plat, HHo Gold
Posts: 156
They can't have done the maths
Folks,
I feel I have to jump in here, now that everybody is getting excited on the nice LX C seats and the convenience of A/T transfer at Brussels. I'm BRU based and a M&M HON (not that anybody at SN would care), so I should probably be happy that one can fly BRU-NYC directly with a decent product and earning LH status miles. Let me tell you: I'm not. Only, if an airline takes intelligent decisions that ensures its sustainability, should we be happy, for if they don't, they will make us pay for it by subsequently reducing service, "improving" their loyalty programs or disappearing (with their sold tickets and accumulated miles) altogether -- an event not unheard of in Belgian aviation.
The JFK flight is something network planners at SN have probably been dreaming about ever since Sabena went bust with a similar kind of strategic reasoning that one could see on TV in Belgium, when the whole idea was announced at the very press conference dedicated to communicate the disastrous 2011 results of Brussels Airlines (no figures were announced, but it was very clear, that "the loss" was significant and that LH had not been amused).
Well, against this backdrop Stevie (Viscount Etienne Davignon, mind you), brings his two CEO-co-gophers (an ex-consultant who's firm went bankrupt at the same time as Sabena and a retiring Sabena-dinosaur) and steels them the show by announcing that they will be introducing a NYC service, because they 'analyzed it and found out that half of their Africa passengers are originating in the US' and if they fly JFK-BRU themselves they can 'earn from both tickets' (I mean, he is the Chairman, and he actually said that.) .
One of the executives was given some time to talk about his ideas on how to become profitable at the airline -- that one is also great, although admittedly OT: 'we analyzed it' (again) and 'found out that during the winter months there is actually less traffic' (now what a find that is!) and now they want to introduce a very innovative scheme of seasonal variation in their schedule and workforce. (Guys: wake up! this is 2012 and although it might appear to you that LH as a shareholder is almost as practical as the Belgian state was to Sabena in covering your non-profitable operations, a tad of state-of-the-art professionalism is required to survive in the era of LCC, Emirates & Co.).
Sorry for the diversion, back to JFK and the viscount, who has been running the public show for Brussels Airlines, ever since he had received some kind of royal mandate to maintain a Belgian national airline in 2002. He sent away Christoph Mueller, Sabena's last CEO, who had in vain and with time running short tried to clean up all the mess that 70 years of government management and a few years of Swissair-faux-grandeur had done to the Brussels aviation market. I'm mentioning that, because it was him, who is now successfully running Aer Lingus, who had made the decision to discontinue the direct JFK service of ailing Sabena -- along with several other correct network decision, laying the ground for a possible survival of SN after Sabena.
Ten years on, lots of memory lost, after another loss-making year 2011, with recession dawning on us and the long-haul travel market, other airlines (inc LH) struggling starting to reduce their long-haul offering, Brussels Airlines has the brilliant idea to launch a "me-too" New York service. Here is my take on it:
- NYC is already served 4 times daily out of Brussels, by AA (to JFK), by alliance partner CO (to EWR) and by SN-code share partner 9W (to both of JFK and EWR). I don't even want to count the weekly connections to New York out of Paris, Amsterdam and Dsseldorf, all within convenient high-speed train services to their respective airports from Brussels and other Belgian cities. This is one competitive market and while (as a passenger) I like the 399 Y fare, it's impossible to run this operation profitably at this fare level -- but that level it will be.
- Flight timing is as standard as it gets: departure out of Brussels is within minutes of all other New York services, arrival into Brussels is so early, afternoon rush hour taxi rides through Manhattan and Queens will add an extra thrill to your travel. A very early departure ex BRU (if the local market plus the Africa connecting passengers were large enough) would be an innovative product, as would have been a late afternoon departure, complementing (instead of duplicating) the Star Alliance TATL coverage.
- Connectivity to the famous SN Africa services is sub-standard; connection times of more than 4 hours (for the better timings), and up to 12 hours for others make this a drop-out from CRS displays to destinations that are partly served directly (ACC, DKR, ...) or via other hubs at much better / equivalent connectivity. As a matter of fact, it's a connectivity deterioration vis--vis the current situation with a feed out of NYC by CO or AA.
- Beyond connectivity in the US will be a joke, given UA's virtual absence from JFK; it's not understandable why the Westbound flight doesn't feed into a later hub wave at EWR, or replaces the early CO flight (who could have tried IAH-BRU instead, tapping into some higher-yield petroleum markets Texas-Africa).
- So now we've got the Swissair (oh pardon the pun
) Swiss business class seat, which is a admittedly a great seat configuration from a passenger perspective, and SN is going to roll it out 'all over its network', i.e. Africa. So they are moving from 30/254 C/Y configuration to a 30/238 configuration, losing Y revenue potential on routes dominated by ethnic travel.
I think, this is not an econmically sustainable concept and they are going to lose an arm and a leg on that route. I - frankly - can't understand, why LH lets them do that.
My two cents,
Jan
I feel I have to jump in here, now that everybody is getting excited on the nice LX C seats and the convenience of A/T transfer at Brussels. I'm BRU based and a M&M HON (not that anybody at SN would care), so I should probably be happy that one can fly BRU-NYC directly with a decent product and earning LH status miles. Let me tell you: I'm not. Only, if an airline takes intelligent decisions that ensures its sustainability, should we be happy, for if they don't, they will make us pay for it by subsequently reducing service, "improving" their loyalty programs or disappearing (with their sold tickets and accumulated miles) altogether -- an event not unheard of in Belgian aviation.
The JFK flight is something network planners at SN have probably been dreaming about ever since Sabena went bust with a similar kind of strategic reasoning that one could see on TV in Belgium, when the whole idea was announced at the very press conference dedicated to communicate the disastrous 2011 results of Brussels Airlines (no figures were announced, but it was very clear, that "the loss" was significant and that LH had not been amused).
Well, against this backdrop Stevie (Viscount Etienne Davignon, mind you), brings his two CEO-co-gophers (an ex-consultant who's firm went bankrupt at the same time as Sabena and a retiring Sabena-dinosaur) and steels them the show by announcing that they will be introducing a NYC service, because they 'analyzed it and found out that half of their Africa passengers are originating in the US' and if they fly JFK-BRU themselves they can 'earn from both tickets' (I mean, he is the Chairman, and he actually said that.) .
One of the executives was given some time to talk about his ideas on how to become profitable at the airline -- that one is also great, although admittedly OT: 'we analyzed it' (again) and 'found out that during the winter months there is actually less traffic' (now what a find that is!) and now they want to introduce a very innovative scheme of seasonal variation in their schedule and workforce. (Guys: wake up! this is 2012 and although it might appear to you that LH as a shareholder is almost as practical as the Belgian state was to Sabena in covering your non-profitable operations, a tad of state-of-the-art professionalism is required to survive in the era of LCC, Emirates & Co.).
Sorry for the diversion, back to JFK and the viscount, who has been running the public show for Brussels Airlines, ever since he had received some kind of royal mandate to maintain a Belgian national airline in 2002. He sent away Christoph Mueller, Sabena's last CEO, who had in vain and with time running short tried to clean up all the mess that 70 years of government management and a few years of Swissair-faux-grandeur had done to the Brussels aviation market. I'm mentioning that, because it was him, who is now successfully running Aer Lingus, who had made the decision to discontinue the direct JFK service of ailing Sabena -- along with several other correct network decision, laying the ground for a possible survival of SN after Sabena.
Ten years on, lots of memory lost, after another loss-making year 2011, with recession dawning on us and the long-haul travel market, other airlines (inc LH) struggling starting to reduce their long-haul offering, Brussels Airlines has the brilliant idea to launch a "me-too" New York service. Here is my take on it:
- NYC is already served 4 times daily out of Brussels, by AA (to JFK), by alliance partner CO (to EWR) and by SN-code share partner 9W (to both of JFK and EWR). I don't even want to count the weekly connections to New York out of Paris, Amsterdam and Dsseldorf, all within convenient high-speed train services to their respective airports from Brussels and other Belgian cities. This is one competitive market and while (as a passenger) I like the 399 Y fare, it's impossible to run this operation profitably at this fare level -- but that level it will be.
- Flight timing is as standard as it gets: departure out of Brussels is within minutes of all other New York services, arrival into Brussels is so early, afternoon rush hour taxi rides through Manhattan and Queens will add an extra thrill to your travel. A very early departure ex BRU (if the local market plus the Africa connecting passengers were large enough) would be an innovative product, as would have been a late afternoon departure, complementing (instead of duplicating) the Star Alliance TATL coverage.
- Connectivity to the famous SN Africa services is sub-standard; connection times of more than 4 hours (for the better timings), and up to 12 hours for others make this a drop-out from CRS displays to destinations that are partly served directly (ACC, DKR, ...) or via other hubs at much better / equivalent connectivity. As a matter of fact, it's a connectivity deterioration vis--vis the current situation with a feed out of NYC by CO or AA.
- Beyond connectivity in the US will be a joke, given UA's virtual absence from JFK; it's not understandable why the Westbound flight doesn't feed into a later hub wave at EWR, or replaces the early CO flight (who could have tried IAH-BRU instead, tapping into some higher-yield petroleum markets Texas-Africa).
- So now we've got the Swissair (oh pardon the pun
) Swiss business class seat, which is a admittedly a great seat configuration from a passenger perspective, and SN is going to roll it out 'all over its network', i.e. Africa. So they are moving from 30/254 C/Y configuration to a 30/238 configuration, losing Y revenue potential on routes dominated by ethnic travel.I think, this is not an econmically sustainable concept and they are going to lose an arm and a leg on that route. I - frankly - can't understand, why LH lets them do that.
My two cents,
Jan
Last edited by Jan@BRU; Jan 11, 2012 at 10:41 am
Jan 11, 2012 | 12:15 pm
#35
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BOM-WAW-EWR
Programs: UA*G (1K again), Sixt Plat, AC*G, LH FTL, AI*G *was*: SQ QPP01 & SK EBS/EBG, LH SEN, AA EXP, 9wPlat
Posts: 8,749
Jan, I agree with you - tough to compete with 9w and others playing in the field at BRU - which can't attract much local traffic there.
However, let's see how this JFK flights go.
Let's never forget Sabena - I spent most of my childhood life on board their metal! ^
However, let's see how this JFK flights go.
Let's never forget Sabena - I spent most of my childhood life on board their metal! ^
Jan 11, 2012 | 3:28 pm
#36
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BRU-ZRH
Programs: LX HON, BA Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium Elite
Posts: 765
Thanks a lot for the insight Jan@Bru. Perhaps Lufthansa Group should consider setting up a board of directors of their HONs!
I am appreciating your view as well as the view of SN, very much wondering how it will turn out.
On the pro I could say that Africa in 2012 is not Africa in 2001. One must acknowledge that Africa has come into the picture (even if only from a commodity boom point of view) and that they will have an enormous population growth over the next decades (the continent will double it's population to 2 billion by 2050). The problem for trading with Africa was always mostly access - with IT and expanded travel possibilities this has become possible. Also, if they can reach about breakeven level on the BRU-JFK leg and get the return in Africa, it could of course boost their market share and increase profits.
On the con I could say that there such airliners as ET, MS, SA, as well as that the market BRU-JFK is already sufficiently served by competitors.
Interesting to see how it will develop!
I am appreciating your view as well as the view of SN, very much wondering how it will turn out.
On the pro I could say that Africa in 2012 is not Africa in 2001. One must acknowledge that Africa has come into the picture (even if only from a commodity boom point of view) and that they will have an enormous population growth over the next decades (the continent will double it's population to 2 billion by 2050). The problem for trading with Africa was always mostly access - with IT and expanded travel possibilities this has become possible. Also, if they can reach about breakeven level on the BRU-JFK leg and get the return in Africa, it could of course boost their market share and increase profits.
On the con I could say that there such airliners as ET, MS, SA, as well as that the market BRU-JFK is already sufficiently served by competitors.
Interesting to see how it will develop!
Jan 11, 2012 | 3:50 pm
#37
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brussels,Belgium
Posts: 191
Pictures of the new Brussels Airlines Business and Economy class cabin
Attended the press event in Brussels yesterday. Shot some pictures of the new Business class and Economy class seats. Enjoy.
http://travel.bart.la/2012/01/11/bru...usiness-class/
Thanks.
http://travel.bart.la/2012/01/11/bru...usiness-class/
Thanks.
Jan 12, 2012 | 1:37 am
#38
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 52,501
Jan@BRU: LH is clearly asking SN to assume a certain role, which seems to be to focus on Africa. OS supposedly is leveraging CEE, LX the captive CH market. In LH's eyes having 200+ in the back of the bus is an awful lot of seats to fill that traditionally don't really yield much. If you look at similar sized aircraft in the LH goup, the most they put in the back is 195. Filling the back of the bus consistently and profitably is the challenge, and I suppose the want to copy the VFR philosophy that works well US-India/CEE/NME for LH & OS onto the SN operation and fill the front with EU/UN & Business traffic to NYC.
Jan 12, 2012 | 5:43 am
#39
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brussels
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 36
- So now we've got the Swissair (oh pardon the pun) Swiss business class seat, which is a admittedly a great seat configuration from a passenger perspective, and SN is going to roll it out 'all over its network', i.e. Africa. So they are moving from 30/254 C/Y configuration to a 30/238 configuration, losing Y revenue potential on routes dominated by ethnic travel.
) Swiss business class seat, which is a admittedly a great seat configuration from a passenger perspective, and SN is going to roll it out 'all over its network', i.e. Africa. So they are moving from 30/254 C/Y configuration to a 30/238 configuration, losing Y revenue potential on routes dominated by ethnic travel.
Jun 1, 2012 | 5:34 pm
#40
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brussels,Belgium
Posts: 191
Brussels Airlines Inaugural flight SN501 BRU-JFK June 1, 2012
Flew Brussels Airlines inaugural flight SN501 from Brussels to New York today. I was seated on the first row in economy class (14D). Quite exhausted now, not from the flight, but from queuing at JFK immigration (2,5 hours)! My flight back (SN502 JFK-BRU) is on Sunday. Will post full review early next week. Here are some pictures of today's flight:
http://travel.bart.la/2012/06/02/bru...-new-york-jfk/
http://travel.bart.la/2012/06/02/bru...-new-york-jfk/
Jun 2, 2012 | 5:49 am
#41
Join Date: Sep 2004
Programs: LH HON, AF Plat, BA Gold, SPG Plat, HHo Gold
Posts: 156
Bets are open
Will the new route or the new (single) CEO last longer?
I still can't believe the stubborn naiveness of this airline (which had the advantage to clean up its stable after their 2002 bankruptcy) to have this unsurmountable desire to repeat the same errors all other airlines (including its own) have already made...
I had posted about this before: but starting a new I/C flight (with a new premium C product) on a route with 3 (struggling) competitors on it, in order to capture low yield African transfer traffic ex JFK is a mix for disaster at a moment where so many other airlines can't run fast enough to axe those foreseeably loss-making routes.
It was pathetic to see on Belgian TV, how inaugural (experienced) flight attendants [who's hairdo and make-up look as if they already had worked the inaugural flight of Sabena to JFK -- back in the days] where so "enthusiastic" to be on this flight and were only regretting that their ex-Sabena colleagues didn't have the opportunity to be with them on board. They didn't seem enthusiastic to "serve their clients" or anything like that. As usual on Belgian state TV, after the trade union representatives, the CEO was allowed to impart his recently acquired strategic insight on airline management: after we failed to get our Brussels non-stop routes to Europe and Africa profitable on their own, it's very clear: we are now embarking on building a "hub" to connect the US to Africa and Europe.
I'm intrigued: should the report examining the reasons of Sabena's demise not have been the #1 compulsory literature for a to-be-CEO, who joins an airline as a consultant without prior sector experience? Here are the links:
http://www.dekamer.be/FLWB/PDF/50/1514/50K1514003.pdf
and in more digestable form:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...366278,00.html
It's not too late for Lufthansa to stop the amateurism!
I still can't believe the stubborn naiveness of this airline (which had the advantage to clean up its stable after their 2002 bankruptcy) to have this unsurmountable desire to repeat the same errors all other airlines (including its own) have already made...
I had posted about this before: but starting a new I/C flight (with a new premium C product) on a route with 3 (struggling) competitors on it, in order to capture low yield African transfer traffic ex JFK is a mix for disaster at a moment where so many other airlines can't run fast enough to axe those foreseeably loss-making routes.
It was pathetic to see on Belgian TV, how inaugural (experienced) flight attendants [who's hairdo and make-up look as if they already had worked the inaugural flight of Sabena to JFK -- back in the days] where so "enthusiastic" to be on this flight and were only regretting that their ex-Sabena colleagues didn't have the opportunity to be with them on board. They didn't seem enthusiastic to "serve their clients" or anything like that. As usual on Belgian state TV, after the trade union representatives, the CEO was allowed to impart his recently acquired strategic insight on airline management: after we failed to get our Brussels non-stop routes to Europe and Africa profitable on their own, it's very clear: we are now embarking on building a "hub" to connect the US to Africa and Europe.
I'm intrigued: should the report examining the reasons of Sabena's demise not have been the #1 compulsory literature for a to-be-CEO, who joins an airline as a consultant without prior sector experience? Here are the links:
http://www.dekamer.be/FLWB/PDF/50/1514/50K1514003.pdf
and in more digestable form:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...366278,00.html
It's not too late for Lufthansa to stop the amateurism!
Jun 2, 2012 | 9:52 am
#42
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: HPN
Programs: not anymore! I'm FREE!
Posts: 3,486
Hm. Looks like the competitors are American, Delta and Jet from JFK, and United and Jet from EWR - so a a total of 4 competitors if you include EWR.
Should be interesting. I hope the route lasts until autumn, when someone I know has an award ticket on SN from JFK-BRU.
Should be interesting. I hope the route lasts until autumn, when someone I know has an award ticket on SN from JFK-BRU.
Jun 2, 2012 | 12:08 pm
#43
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BRU
Programs: LH SEN, SN Gold, Eurostar Carte Blanche, BA, QF, AF
Posts: 6,854
Jun 4, 2012 | 2:05 am
#44
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: YVR/YYZ/YYC
Posts: 365
SN and JFK
So I know that the matter of there now being 5 airlines on the BRU to NYC route has been discussed before, with the 5 operating 6 daily flights departing within 70 minutes of each other.
About two weeks ago, I noticed that SN's flight was not available to book post-Winter schedule, ending March 30. I contacted SN regarding this, wondering whether this was just a matter of the schedule not yet being extended into S13, or if in fact the flight would be terminated from March 30. The response I received stated this:
Today, airlineroute had this posted this, stating that 9W has cut BRU-JFK from Sept 10.
Is it likely that LH pushed 9W to cancel the leg in order to feed pax onto SN, and that SN will now extend the flight past March?
About two weeks ago, I noticed that SN's flight was not available to book post-Winter schedule, ending March 30. I contacted SN regarding this, wondering whether this was just a matter of the schedule not yet being extended into S13, or if in fact the flight would be terminated from March 30. The response I received stated this:
It is still unclear if the flights to New York will be offered after March 30th as the contracts between the airports and Brussels Airlines are not ok yet.
Is it likely that LH pushed 9W to cancel the leg in order to feed pax onto SN, and that SN will now extend the flight past March?
Jun 4, 2012 | 2:27 am
#45
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 52,501