l etoile

Thanks for your response ksandness. Good information.

Jakebeth

I won't try to address the who's offending who issue here, but perhaps this will help clarify some.

I start by saying that I will defer to Dovster or any others who better know the theology if what I'm saying doesn't square with actual Jewish law, etc.

There's very little bowing/kneeling inherent in Judaism, but it does exist. Most specifically, we bend sharply during a specific prayer. And in some congregations, rabbis will actually lay flat on the ground facing the "Ark" in which our Torahs are held. Now perhaps the bending is itself not technically meant to denote prayer (Dovster? Lehava?), but that is how I've always perceived it. As a result, I associate any kind of bending, or kneeling as prayer.

So, while I wouldn't mind standing if that seemed like the proper show of respect while others are kneeling, for example, I will not ever kneel as part of another's religious ceremony. If the preference of the congregation is that I not be there at all (i.e. standing's not enough), I'd be truly amenable to stepping outside.

I would also point out that from a purely cultural perspective (i.e. not based on any particular religious belief) I (and I would assert, many Jews) am particularly sensitive to any kind of religious involvement that resembles compulsory participation on the part of Jewish people in non-Jewish rituals. It's something that's been an issue throughout history.

Jakebeth

Can we assume that since you're a self-described Baptist, your FT 'handle' isn't meant as a double for its rough Hebrew translation, which is 'teaspoon-man'?

rkt10

Lehava, I wouldn't be so concerned if I were a visitor to another's Church. One thing I've noted at Catholic funerals, for example (I"m Catholic) where there is likely to be non-Catholics in attendance. The Priest will make the sermon broader and more ecumenical, although touching on the beliefs and behavior of the deceased that coincides with Church teaching.

But I wouldn't be offended by a sermon (no matter what faith) that encourages the congregation to prostheletize and try to convert others of other faiths. If that's the belief of that religion, then the Priest or Minister or whatever is entitled to encourage behavior consistent with that religion.

There are teachings of the Catholic Church that might be considered outrageous by others. For example, in the previous Catechism there was a statement: The Catholic Church is the One True Church established by Christ to give grace. Now if you're not a Catholic you might disagree with that statement. But if you're a Catholic and you do believe it, there's nothing wrong with respecting and enjoying the services of another faith.

If a non-Catholic (in this instance I'm using the Catholic church) hears something that he things is unfairly critical of other faiths, I would recommend that he have a discussion after Mass with the priest. What may be interpreted as unacceptable criticism might just be a misunderstanding of what the Church's doctrine is.

On, on the subject of sitting, I often sit back if I'm not feeling "tip top" during Mass. I believe it's acceptable and not an insult to the presence of Christ. Rather, what is insulting (and Catholics are guilty of this bigtime) is chatting before Mass, chewing gum, etc.) Even 'tho the Mass consecrates the bread and wine, there still remains (at all times) consecrated hosts (the Body and Blood of Christ) in the church at all times. Catholics forget this fact (and unfortunately, many don't even believe it anymore.)

Rita

Jakebeth

Rita, let me preface by saying that I truly appreciate your participation in the thread, and thoughts on the subject. Nothing I'm about to write is intended as a 'retort' or any kind of argument with you. Rather, I mean to try and elaborate about why some folks (like myself) are so sensitive to such things.

Prosletyzing is a particular hot-botton for many Jewish people. The reasons reach back in history, and the ways in which Jewish people were treated by other communities, societies, and religions across history. My memory is such that I'm not well-suited to walk through a list of examples, but the list is long. The ultimate point, though, is that for many of us, the very notion of prosletyzation (sp?) is not only an affront, but nearly an act of aggression. That may sound a bit ridiculous in light of our modern world, but the history is itself shocking and ridiculous.

That said, I think your advice about talking with a priest or minister after a service is quite level-headed.

rkt10

Oh, no, Jakebeth, I'm glad you responded. Actually, I absolutely understand the effects of prostheletizing, especially on Jews. I recently ran into a Mexican in New Mexico whose ancestors had come from Spain. He had a Jewish name. No doubt about how that happened.

Actually, the prostheletizing part had it's origins in the words of Christ, "Go now and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy (Ghost) Spirit."

But I also firmly believe that all conversations about religion should be based on the honest search for truth by equal parties. Otherwise, it can be offensive. During the inquisition clearly Catholic men and women lost their religious bearings and did great harm.

Thanks for your note.
Rita

essxjay

Interesting post.

I don't enter churches in general, having left faith-based life behind a very long time ago. But two Christmases ago I found myself near a little church in Ausburg, Germany, and was feeling sadness over the too-early loss of a FT friend who was deeply religious. I entered the church and lit a candle for him because of what he meant to me. The symbolic gesture wasn't done because that's what you do for a Catholic friend but because it was personally meaningful to me: my memory of him will never be extinguished.

That said, all my outward actions in a place of worship, if I were allowed in to begin with, would be one of respect for the relevant customs while not partaking in the riturals. In good conscience, I could never recite a prayer or sing a hymn. It would just be wrong of me as a non-practicing guest. That's my justification for sitting quietly at Catholic weddings or Masses of Christian Burial rather than kneeling, or taking communion for that matter even though I was baptized/given last rites, etc. etc. etc.

essxjay

Another interesting post.

Since atheism and faith are incompatible, discussions about religious beliefs are irreconcilable due to the exclusionary premises involved, and I simply don't engage in them any more. As a philosopher-in-training, I've had to study all the great ontological arguments for and against the existence of God that are out there: Aquinas, Paley, Descartes, Spinoza (sort of), Hume, and others.

I've come to my own conclusion based on all the available evidence, and I've yet to be convinced of God's existence.

That said, I'm amenable to hearing a really good theistic argument. But frankly, such discussions tend to leave all parties involved angry and upset with one another, if not downright hurt. I see little point in initiating such converations, and so I don't. If others initiate them I'll listen politely for a while, and then ask if we could change the subject.

Great thread, btw, Dovster, and one that I figured would come up eventually in this forum. I hope it stays on track.

eastwest

I was hoping that you (all) might consider that someone who is behaving "offensively" might actually have a good reason for behaving that way...or in my case...might actually be striving to be as "non-offensive" as possible. It's easier when things are cut and dried. For example, if you aren't Moslem, you don't have a prayer rug...pure and simple. If you aren't Catholic...you don't take communion...pure and simple. I've never seen any official edict or direction about standing or kneeling versus sitting though.

I certainly wouldn't claim to be able to "disagree with the fact that [you] are offended." Obviously only you would know something like that! Nor do I want to take the discussion too far off topic...so I'll avoid further comment about why I feel justified in remaining seated.

Lastly, congregations that allow outsiders (for lack of a better term) have to be prepared for these sorts of things...and are best (I believe) served in realizing that others desire to simply be a quiet, non participant are not meant as offensive and that ideally (I believe) no offense should be taken.

The way around this "problem" (if you see it as such) is to have services or ceremonies where outsiders are not permitted. Several groups, religious and otherwise, to some extent operate this way.

Finally...I sincerely apologize if I offended you or anyone else with my comments. I'll stand by their validity, but I won't hesitate to extend my honest regrets for bad feelings they caused. A number of FT'ers have met me in person and know that I'm an agreeable person who doesn't "start trouble."

Analise

I am quite surprised your comments. I go to mass with my husband quite often in his Catholic church and I see PLENTY of people sit instead of kneel. The kneeling bench is hard and difficult for some people's knees. So they sit and lean forward so the person behind can lean kneel and place his arms on the pew in front of him. Are you saying that this is offensive? It is a common occurrence.

Analise

^

Analise

Only you can decide what offends you; nobody else can. This does not mean, however, that what offends you reflects the congregations of various Catholic churches. As I mentioned already, I've seen many people sit and lean forward instead of kneeling because the kneeling bench causes too much discomfort for them. And these are people of all ages.

badatz

Just to set the record straight, in Orthodox Judaism there are only 2 prayers which have required bending. The AMIDAH prayer which requires 4 bends and the ALEINU which has 1.
Bending at all other times is actually prohibited because it was not commanded except for the above mentioned times.
What we do have is a lot of swaying which is strictly an individual voluntary body movement which sort of happens when one is caught up trance like in prayer. Many people including myself pray ram rod straight up
As to the "prostating Rabbi" I have never seen it anywhere and can only imagine that you are refering to a part of the YOM KIPPUR prayer when the entire congregation, Rabbi, Cantor and participants prostate themselves for a few seconds (each at their respective place in the synagogue) in memory of the High Priest who did the same in the Holy of Holies in the Temple on Yom Kippur. This is strictly a one shot deal and not part of the regular year long ritual
In short, bowing is definately not a part of Orthodox Judaism and probably not of the other denominations either

rives21

To Analise and others above, I truly appreciate the good natured and respectful tone this thread has followed. Thank you for your kind responses and contributions.

Back to the topic of sitting. Yes, I too have certainly seen people at Mass who sit during inappropriate times. In fact, I saw it yesterday and I thought of this thread. I can only assume that these people perhaps fall into one or some of the following categories: ignorant, infirm, or conscience decision not honor Christ in this manner by kneeling or standing in his presence. Perhaps, there are other reasons. It's also possible I suppose that they feel that sitting is a higher sign of respect than kneeling or standing.

Really, I don't know all the reasons why one would sit during this time. I only know that I was taught to kneel in the presence of Christ. I believe that it is a proper sign of respect to show. And it is by far the norm among nearly a billion Catholics to follow this custom - notwithstanding a few sitters here and there. I would guess that in any given Catholic Mass in any country on the planet, perhaps 95% of the congregation will be kneeling or standing during the Consecration.

Analise

If I can ask this (and it goes a bit off topic so please forgive me), but I was amazed that Catholics don't kneel when receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. They stand. Episcopalians kneel just as you describe it from the time of the consecration, at the altar to receive communion, and back at our pews through to the post-communion prayer. (Our kneelers in our pews and at the altar rail at my church are, thankfully, kind to our knees ). Were you taught to kneel when receiving communion? I'm just curious.