Analise

That must have been some wayward Catholic priest to be taking part in the speaking of tongues. That service sounds more evangelical than Catholic. What was it like to hear these people speak "in tongues"? Loud?

Your thread reminded me that when I was an exchange student in Japan, I attended a traditional Shinto wedding. The attendees were mostly men and they wore black suits. I also wore a dark suit. I felt very honored to attend because those who were there were close family.

underpressure

Other than donations, I am the same. They should pay me to be there.

l etoile

It was a while ago and was part of the whole charismatic Catholic, liberation theology movement that was popular in Latin America and had areas where it caught on in the states as well. What was it like? It was at a convention and so it was a whole big conference hall filled with people standing, their eyes closed, hands raised and just letting streams of sounds come out. It was definitely something I haven't forgotten ...

These priests didn't compare to the local wayward priest who did stuff like hire a witch to teach at the Catholic university, among other things (taught Original Blessing rather than Original Sin). Ratizinger (who wasn't pope then) eventually had him excommunicated. He's an Episcopal priest now.

dchristiva

Okay by me. Sounds like this is more of a personal choice than adhering to the customs of the religion in which you are temporarily participating. I'm sure someone will say I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to believe that a priest would tell you that YOU can't light a candle and say a prayer rather than having him do it. I certainly wouldn't object as a parishoner.

ejmelton

I think that you handle the situations very well, Dovster. As a Roman Catholic minister (Permanent Deacon) that married into a (mostly) Protestant family and lives in an area that is heavily Jewish, I find myself in these situations frequently, both as a minister and as a member of the congregation.

My first goal is to respect the community that I am with. If the men wear yamakas, so do I. In a mosque I remove my shoes. I try to participate as much as I can, so singing and praying with the community is what I do. Being Catholic that is easier for me than for others since I don't often run into situations that I feel are in opposition to my beliefs.

I can see how it is more complicated for non-Catholics coming into a Catholic church. When I preside over weddings I always make a point of welcoming everyone and encouraging everyone to participate as much as possible. I don't expect non-Catholics to bow to the tabernacle (they don't share my belief about the presence of Christ) nor do I expect them to recite prayers that do not reflect their beliefs, the "Hail Mary" for example. On the other hand, I expect everyone to participate in the more "generic" prayers, like saying "Amen" at the end of a blessing. (At baptisms, if I don't get a resounding "Amen" at the end of the blessing of the mother I make the congregaion do say it again.)

I have to admit that as a minister, I am somewhat put off by folks who sit during the entire service. It feels to me like an act of defiance, although I am sure that this is often not the case. Kneeling seems to be an issue. I kneel because I believe that (during the consecration) Jesus is coming into our community in a unique way. If one doesn't believe that, should one kneel? Unless you are trying to make a statement, why not? To me this is in the same category as wearing a yamaka or taking one's shoes off. (Besides, kneeling behind someone who is sitting is a real pain. :<) )

Thanks bringing the topic up, Dovster. I think that we tend to spend too much time thinking about what separates us, rather than looking at what we have in common, which is a lot.

Reverend Mister Ed

vickiburton

It would seem to me, that when we enter into a worship service or a place of worship that is outside our normal experience or comfort zone, and conduct ourselves in a way that shows respect for those of that faith, that effort is noticed and appreciated by those of the faith, and if we make a mistake, I think it is usually overlooked and easily forgiven. I truly don't think that something done in ignorance can be so offensive to God that the faithful would have to take umbrage.

MSY-MSP

Dov, I agree with most of all that you have said about how to behave/act when in a place of worship that is outside ones own beliefs.

In many cases we are placed in positions where we are faced with choices that really challenge us. For example, I was in a friends wedding. It was a catholic wedding, and I am Jewish, so most of this was foreign to me. However, as I walked down the aisle to take my place as a groomsman the priest instructed us that we were to geneflect (Is that spelled right?) in front of the cross. Of course he had to show us during the rehersal how to do this, as none of us were catholic. This act was against what I had been taught as appropriate. However, in this case I chose to do it as it was more important for the bride and groom that I do this than were my beliefs. However for the rest of the service we did not kneel or take communion.

This does bring about an interesting question that has been brought up by others, but not fully answered. What should one do in a situation where an act in another place of worship is offensive to your own religion. What I am referring to are where the entry into the place is not offensive, but one act is. For example, in a church an orthodox Jew being required to remove his head covering. What is the correct thing to do?

Lehava

Wow Dov you really do clean up well in public, sounds like your manners are almost perfect on this! I do about the same. On the hat thing, most of my male Jewish friends to tend to wear a small plain kippah even at a church. No one has ever seemed to have an issue with it.

Lehava

Analise, one thing about going to synagogue that is VERY different from being in church, NEVER feel bad coming in late, walking out for a break or whatever. It is VERY common place and pretty much the norm (based on the length of the service). Many people time when they come to service based on the approximate time a certain part of the service will start and leave when a certain part is concluded. You will NOT call attention to yourself. Yes for a Bat Mitzvah it might be noticed if many in the room are non-Jews, but the Jewish members wont give it a second thoughts or glance. We do services in shifts quite often *smile*

Lehava

If anyone is looking for a GREAT book about what to expect, how to dress or how to act when going to a Synagogue the first time I cant recommend this one enough. I keep a spare copy at my home so if I am inviting someone to shul with me for the first time and they are feeling creepy about it they can take a look at it. Just an awesome thing to have around (and a very funny title too - The Synagogue Survival Kit)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156...lance&n=283155

rives21

I'm not a Deacon, but simply a Catholic and I completely agree with ejmelton that people who don't kneel at the appropriate time during a Catholic Mass are showing disrepect. I do think that most likely (perhaps always) it is simply a matter of ignorance. And, of course I would allow for the elderly or infirm to sit during this time.

As ejmelton said above, during the consecration, Jesus is present. He's in the room with us. I sometimes think of an analogy with the Queen of England or a US President. Certainly if one of them came into the room, nearly everyone would stand at attention or bow or courtesy. In fact, I know some gentlemen who will stand up if a woman walks into the room. How much more deserving of a similar sign of respect is Jesus?

By the way, if you really don't want to or can't kneel, I believe that standing is totally fine. Sitting is not fine - unless elderly or infirm.

Dovster

Keep in mind two things:

1. He is not required to remove his head convering in a church -- I do it as a sign of respect but head coverings are, in fact, allowed (as anyone who has seen a bishop in a Catholic church can testify).

2. Even the most Orthodox Jew is not required to wear a head covering unless he is praying. The reason that so many wear them at all times is in case a situation arises where he feels the need for a sudden, silent, prayer. By not praying in the Church, he avoids this possibility.

The key to your post, as well as the key to why I would not kneel, is the statement "during the consecration, Jesus is present."

I accept that you believe that and I certainly am not going to argue about it. Keep in mind, however, that to believe that Jesus is present is to believe that he is God.

As a Jew, I do not believe that. To me, doing or saying anything that indicates that Jesus is God would be a violation of the commandment that "Thou shall have no other gods before me."

Morever, by making such an announcement (through the act of kneeling) I would lying in your church -- which I consider disrepectful to you.

I think a fair equivalent would be expecting you, who believes in the Holy Trinity, to deny the nature of God as you see it by repeating the Jewish prayer of "Hear, oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

ejmelton

The problem, Dovster, is where to draw the line. If removing your shoes is not "lying" in a mosque, why is kneeling in mine? Again, I think that there is a difference in participating with the community and making a personal ritual act. (BTW, I would not have required the non Catholics in the previous wedding example to individually genuflect for just that reason.)

Totally as an aside, your prayer example isn't a very good one. In Mark, Jesus quotes Deuteronomy "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. " (Mark 12:29 ) (No matter how interesting, a discussion on Christology really is OT. )

I will be at a funeral mass tomorrow and this discussion has raised my sensitivity to the feelings of our guests. Thanks!

Dovster

To a great degree it is a question which can only be answered by what is in the heart of the person doing (or not doing) the act.

I remove my shoes in a mosque for the same reason that I remove my hat in a church -- it is, to me, a simple sign of respect.

I would not prostrate myself on a prayer carpet in a mosque just as I would not kneel in a church. In both cases, I feel that I am telling the world "I am praying in accordance with your belief." In both cases, for me, this would be a lie.

rives21

Okay Dovster, I hear what you are saying and I have two questions. The first is do you have an issue with standing during this time - as opposed to sitting or kneeling? If not, then the problem is solved. And no further discussion is required.

However, like you said above, this thread is not about discussing who's religion is "better" or "more correct" - rather the aim of this thread is to discuss which actions/inactions or dress may offend others in a religious place. It is within this very narrow band that I'm addressing.

Essentially, I'm trying to address this issue from the perspective of a worshipper in his home church - not the visitor/traveller. And as that person, I'm telling you that I would be offended to see someone reclining during the Consecration in my church. It's as simple as that. If you want to continue to attend Catholic Mass and persist in reclining during the Consecration, then you should be aware that some people may be offended at your action.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do and I'm not trying to offend here, I'm simply being honest about my feelings from the perspective of a Catholic worshipper during Mass. I think the OP was looking for this perspective in addition to the perspective of the visitor/traveler.