TSA and the Constitution
May 15, 2009 | 7:10 pm
#61
Join Date: Apr 2009
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ROFL. “strewardship of our civil liberties” (sic). Get real. I am not charged with the stewardship of anything but the safety of those who pass through our checkpoint. YOU are the steward of your own civil liberties, and if you don’t do a good job then you get what you deserve.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Notice it doesn't say "you need to secure the blessings of liberty for yourself."
May 15, 2009 | 8:41 pm
#62
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 252
Actually, you are. Everyone is. Hence, this little ditty:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Notice it doesn't say "you need to secure the blessings of liberty for yourself."
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Notice it doesn't say "you need to secure the blessings of liberty for yourself."
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
May 15, 2009 | 8:57 pm
#63
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,006
I read both, and while they are interesting I believe that you are reading far to much into the directives and laws involved. Hair splitting.
“(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis.”
It seems you are assuming that this says that you must provide that ID verifying document only to the aircraft operator. Not quite accurate, that is not what it says. TSA now does the watch list matching, so a request for the ID from a TSA employee is a valid request, if done so prior to entering the sterile area. The TSO will use that document to verify that the boarding bass or sterile area access pass is in the possession of the individual who’s name appears on the document. The TSO will also seek to verify that the ID document is valid, not a forgery, and actually belongs to the individual presenting it as ID.
“(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis.”
It seems you are assuming that this says that you must provide that ID verifying document only to the aircraft operator. Not quite accurate, that is not what it says. TSA now does the watch list matching, so a request for the ID from a TSA employee is a valid request, if done so prior to entering the sterile area. The TSO will use that document to verify that the boarding bass or sterile area access pass is in the possession of the individual who’s name appears on the document. The TSO will also seek to verify that the ID document is valid, not a forgery, and actually belongs to the individual presenting it as ID.
“(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis"
§1560.105(c) Request for identification ?(1) In general . If TSA has not informed the covered aircraft operator of the results of watch list matching for an individual by the time the individual attempts to check in, or informs the covered aircraft operator that an individual has been placed in inhibited status, the aircraft operator must request from the individual a verifying identity document pursuant to procedures in its security program., as provided in 49 CFR part 1544, subpart B or 49 CFR part 1546, subpart B. The individual must present a verifying identity document to the covered aircraft operator at the airport.
(2) Transmission of Updated Secure Flight Passenger Data . Upon reviewing a passenger's verifying identity document, the covered aircraft operator must transmit the SFPD elements from the individual's verifying identity document to TSA.
(3) Provision of Passenger Resolution Information . If requested by TSA, the covered aircraft operator must also provide to TSA the individual's Passenger Resolution Information as specified by TSA.
(4) Exception for minors . If a covered aircraft operator is required to obtain information from an individual's verifying identity document under this paragraph (c), and the individual is younger than 18 years of age and does not have a verifying identity document, TSA may, on a case-by-case basis, authorize the minor or an adult accompanying the minor to state the individual's full name and date of birth in lieu of providing a verifying identity document.
(2) Transmission of Updated Secure Flight Passenger Data . Upon reviewing a passenger's verifying identity document, the covered aircraft operator must transmit the SFPD elements from the individual's verifying identity document to TSA.
(3) Provision of Passenger Resolution Information . If requested by TSA, the covered aircraft operator must also provide to TSA the individual's Passenger Resolution Information as specified by TSA.
(4) Exception for minors . If a covered aircraft operator is required to obtain information from an individual's verifying identity document under this paragraph (c), and the individual is younger than 18 years of age and does not have a verifying identity document, TSA may, on a case-by-case basis, authorize the minor or an adult accompanying the minor to state the individual's full name and date of birth in lieu of providing a verifying identity document.
Notice the only time I am required to SHOW a VID is to the covered aircraft operator.
What I am required by the law to do when it comes to a TSO is to PROVIDE them my name AS IT APPEARS on a VID I hold.
§ 1540.107(b) An individual must provide his or her full name, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when?
(1) The individual, or a person on the individual's behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, or
(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.
(1) The individual, or a person on the individual's behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, or
(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.
§1560.3
Full name means an individual's full name as it appears on a verifying identity document held by the individual.
Date of birth means the day, month, and year of an individual's birth.
Full name means an individual's full name as it appears on a verifying identity document held by the individual.
Date of birth means the day, month, and year of an individual's birth.
If you are still unsure who §1560.105 is meant for look at §1560.105(a)
(a) Applicability . (1) This section applies to each covered aircraft operator beginning on the date that TSA assumes the watch list matching function for the passengers and non-traveling individuals to whom that covered aircraft operator issues a boarding pass or other authorization to enter a sterile area. TSA will provide prior written notification to the covered aircraft operator no later than 60 days before the date on which it will assume the watch list matching function from that covered aircraft operator.
Do you get it now or do you still have questions? I may be delayed in my response as it is nuts around here.
Last edited by Trollkiller; May 15, 2009 at 8:58 pm Reason: Fixed some really BAD spelling errors
May 15, 2009 | 9:12 pm
#64
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
According to Gilmore, the judges claimed that the right to travel was not violated because denying a person a single mode of transportation did not hinder that right. The case they used to back that assertion was one where the person was denied an drivers license. Making the case that denying a person the ability to operate a vehicle is the same as denying a person the ability to ride in a vehicle is a very weak argument.
The TSA's measure of rule covers all modes of transportation and their rules can easily be transferred to the other non-aircraft modes.
Denying a person the use of a mode of transportation without a compelling reason fitted to that particular mode to me would be unconstitutional because the right is the freedom to travel the width and berth of the nation without undue hindrance.
Because the forced ID verification does nothing to enhance the safety of the aircraft, I contend it is an undue hindrance. There is no compelling Government interest in denying a person the ability to ride in a plane without an ID.
Contrast that with screenings, there is a compelling Government interest in denying a person the ability to ride in a plane without them being screened for weapons, explosive and incendiaries.
The TSA's measure of rule covers all modes of transportation and their rules can easily be transferred to the other non-aircraft modes.
Denying a person the use of a mode of transportation without a compelling reason fitted to that particular mode to me would be unconstitutional because the right is the freedom to travel the width and berth of the nation without undue hindrance.
Because the forced ID verification does nothing to enhance the safety of the aircraft, I contend it is an undue hindrance. There is no compelling Government interest in denying a person the ability to ride in a plane without an ID.
Contrast that with screenings, there is a compelling Government interest in denying a person the ability to ride in a plane without them being screened for weapons, explosive and incendiaries.
At this point many of us have opinions as to whether that's the case or not, but they're just that - opinions. It hasn't been tested yet.
May 15, 2009 | 9:16 pm
#65
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,704
I'm not a TSA employee, but I can give the neutral answer you're seeking ...
Your airline compares your name against the watch list, and will only issue your boarding pass if it's not on a watch list. (Or if it's on the "selectee" list, you can get a SSSS pass, but only if you pick it up at the airport.)
So, assuming that your boarding pass is genuine, when the document checker validates your ID and compares it against the boarding pass, which has itself been checked against the watch lists, the document checker is in effect checking your ID against the watch list.
The flaw in the above argument, of course, is that the document checker cannot determine with certainty that your boarding pass is genuine. Sure, there's at least a cursory examination to make sure that the boarding pass doesn't look like a crayon drawing, but it's not that hard to create something that looks an awful lot like a boarding pass. And until boarding passes are authenticated by the document checker, it's still relatively easy to circumvent the watch list.
Your airline compares your name against the watch list, and will only issue your boarding pass if it's not on a watch list. (Or if it's on the "selectee" list, you can get a SSSS pass, but only if you pick it up at the airport.)
So, assuming that your boarding pass is genuine, when the document checker validates your ID and compares it against the boarding pass, which has itself been checked against the watch lists, the document checker is in effect checking your ID against the watch list.
The flaw in the above argument, of course, is that the document checker cannot determine with certainty that your boarding pass is genuine. Sure, there's at least a cursory examination to make sure that the boarding pass doesn't look like a crayon drawing, but it's not that hard to create something that looks an awful lot like a boarding pass. And until boarding passes are authenticated by the document checker, it's still relatively easy to circumvent the watch list.
May 15, 2009 | 9:24 pm
#66
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,006
The crux of the matter comes down to whether or not the TSA can make a case that their is a compelling interest in that failure to ID inhibits their ability to secure aviation domains.
At this point many of us have opinions as to whether that's the case or not, but they're just that - opinions. It hasn't been tested yet.
At this point many of us have opinions as to whether that's the case or not, but they're just that - opinions. It hasn't been tested yet.
May 16, 2009 | 9:11 am
#67
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
Actually, you are. Everyone is. Hence, this little ditty:
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Notice it doesn't say "you need to secure the blessings of liberty for yourself."
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Notice it doesn't say "you need to secure the blessings of liberty for yourself."
May 16, 2009 | 11:15 am
#68
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Midwest USA
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Test cases need to be planned operations. The subject of the test case needs the coaching of a competent attorney before hand so they do not accidentally blow the case.
The easiest test case to do right now is on the SPO-7. All you would need to do is walk around the airport with a block of cheese in one pocket and crackers in the other.
Wait until you are approached and refuse to engage the BDO, TSO or LEO. The will get mad and somebody will frisk you for "officer's safety", they will find the cheese.
An officer can not claim that cheese feels like a weapon so it will kill the "officer's safety" portion of the frisk. If the officer states he thought it is a bomb, the next question is "why would you remove it from the pocket and not wait for the bomb squad".
Done right it will show the whole setup to be unconstitutional from the get go.
The easiest test case to do right now is on the SPO-7. All you would need to do is walk around the airport with a block of cheese in one pocket and crackers in the other.
Wait until you are approached and refuse to engage the BDO, TSO or LEO. The will get mad and somebody will frisk you for "officer's safety", they will find the cheese.
An officer can not claim that cheese feels like a weapon so it will kill the "officer's safety" portion of the frisk. If the officer states he thought it is a bomb, the next question is "why would you remove it from the pocket and not wait for the bomb squad".
Done right it will show the whole setup to be unconstitutional from the get go.
IF the officer thinks it is a bomb, you will most likely get shot. Then you will have a pocket full of Swiss cheese.
May 16, 2009 | 11:58 am
#69
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Although I don't the highest opinion of most law enforcement personnel, I do think that the majority of them have enough sense not to discharge their weapons into what they believe to be a block of high explosives. But I suppose some might.
May 16, 2009 | 12:07 pm
#70
Join Date: Sep 2008
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The swiss cheese part was a joke. The getting shot part was not. Ideally the officer would not shoot at the bomb itself.
If you are going to "press to test", please consider the outcome may not be what you expected.
May 16, 2009 | 12:46 pm
#71
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May 16, 2009 | 6:44 pm
#72
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: QFF
Posts: 5,304
Why does anyone care who people going through the checkpoints are? As long as there are no weapons, explosives, or incendiaries going through, it does not matter.
The TSA shouldn't be doing anything other then checking for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries. Not cash, not 'drugs', not IDs, just weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.
The TSA shouldn't be doing anything other then checking for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries. Not cash, not 'drugs', not IDs, just weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.
May 16, 2009 | 9:45 pm
#73
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May 16, 2009 | 9:56 pm
#75
Join Date: Jan 2005
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That's what I donate to the ACLU for. Where are they ?