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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 5:46 pm
  #31  
 
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 5:48 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
Title 49 1540.5 Terms used in this subchapter.
Screening function means the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.
There is another typo, I don't see anything about the TSA searching for large sums of money.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 5:48 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
then you may argue where you think I am in error or where you think the Supremes are in error.
No thanks,...that would be a masturbatory exercise at best.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 6:02 pm
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by gofast
No thanks,...that would be a masturbatory exercise at best.
Nothing wrong with that exercise.

Seriously, there is value in it. If both sides are making an honest attempt to understand the other person's viewpoint. You never know, you may find something that causes a light to turn on and give me an "ah... ok ... now I get it" moment.

Even if you can not convince me as to your point of view, a public debate gives you the opportunity to give others that "ah... ok ... now I get it" moment.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 6:46 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
TK said:

The common area of an airport has been deemed a public space by the Supreme court.

Placing the SPO-7 or ANY screening device in the public space of an airport to conduct an administrative search falls outside the limitations set forth in the governing statute.
One does not and cannot have an expectation of privacy in public areas. The SPO-7 does not transmit anything, and therefore is not an invasive search. Anything it sees can be seen by the naked eye, and therefore falls under the plain sight rule.
You are absolutely WRONG. You do have an expectation of privacy in a public space.

KATZ V. UNITED STATES, 389 U. S. 347 (1967)

For the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places. What a person knowingly exposes to the public, even in his own home or office, is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection. See Lewis v. United States, 385 U. S. 206, 385 U. S. 210; United States v. Lee, 274 U. S. 559, 274 U. S. 563. But what he seeks to preserve as private, even in an area accessible to the public, may be constitutionally protected.
...
The SPO-7 does not work by viewing what is in plain site as a normal camera or eye would do. The SPO-7's sensor is created to "view" a radation frequency that is not accesable by normal camera sensors or the human eye.

If the SPO-7 worked in the manner you think it does it would just be a camera and we would not be having this discussion.

The SPO-7 is no more a "plain view" camera than the thermo camera in the Kyllo case.

KYLLO v. UNITED STATES 533 U.S. 27

Held: Where, as here, the Government uses a device that is not in general public use, to explore details of a private home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the surveillance is a Fourth Amendment "search," and is presumptively unreasonable without a warrant. Pp. 31-41.

(a) The question whether a warrantless search of a home is reasonable and hence constitutional must be answered no in most instances, but the antecedent question whether a Fourth Amendment "search" has occurred is not so simple. This Court has approved warrantless visual surveillance of a home, see California v. Ciraolo, 476 U. S. 207, 213, ruling that visual observation is no "search" at all, see Dow Chemical Co. v. United States, 476 U. S. 227, 234-235, 239. In assessing when a search is not a search, the Court has adapted a principle first enunciated in Katz v. United States, 389 U. S. 347, 361: A "search" does not occur-even when its object is a house explicitly protected by the Fourth Amendment-unless the individual manifested a subjective expectation of privacy in the searched object, and society is willing to recognize that expectation as reasonable, see, e. g., California v. Ciraolo, supra, at 211. Pp. 31-33.
...
One might think that the new validating rationale would be that examining the portion of a house that is in plain public view, while it is a "search" 1 despite the absence of trespass, is not an "unreasonable" one under the Fourth Amendment. See Minnesota v. Carter, 525 U. S. 83, 104 (1998) (BREYER, J., concurring in judgment).

But in fact we have held that visual observation is no "search" at all perhaps in order to preserve somewhat more intact our doctrine that warrantless searches are presumptively unconstitutional. See Dow Chemical Co. v. United States, 476 U. S. 227, 234-235, 239 (1986).

In assessing when a search is not a search, we have applied somewhat in reverse the principle first enunciated in Katz v. United States, 389 U. S. 347 (1967). Katz involved eavesdropping by means of an electronic listening device placed on the outside of a telephone booth-a location not within the catalog ("persons, houses, papers, and effects") that the Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches. We held that the Fourth Amendment nonetheless protected Katz from the warrantless eavesdropping because he "justifiably relied" upon the privacy of the telephone booth. Id., at 353. As Justice Harlan's oft-quoted concurrence described it, a Fourth Amendment search occurs when the government violates a subjective expectation of privacy that society recognizes as reasonable. See id., at 361
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 7:29 pm
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
TK said:

Screenings are to take place in screening locations for the purpose of granting access to the sterile or other restricted areas as defined by the statute.
Which statute? Can you provide a link to it please?
Title 49

1540.1 Applicability of this subchapter and this part.

This subchapter and this part apply to persons engaged in aviation-related activities

1540.5 Terms used in this subchapter

Sterile area means a portion of an airport defined in the airport security program that provides passengers access to boarding aircraft and to which the access generally is controlled by TSA, or by an aircraft operator under part 1544 of this chapter or a foreign air carrier under part 1546 of this chapter, through the screening of persons and property.

1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection.

(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.

1540.105 Security responsibilities of employees and other persons.

(a) No person may:

(2) Enter, or be present within, a secured area, AOA, SIDA or sterile area without complying with the systems, measures, or procedures being applied to control access to, or presence or movement in, such areas.
If your attempt is to argue because of "or other restricted areas" I will concede that screenings for "other restricted areas" is not well defined in the statute.

This does not change the argument that screenings are for the purpose of granting access to the sterile area.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 7:52 pm
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
TK said:

Because the subjects of this search have not agreed to the search and because the search falls outside the limitations set forth in the governing statute, the use of the SPO-7 in the public space of the airport is an unreasonable search within the confines of the 4th amendment. Therefore the use of the SPO-7 or ANY screening device in this manner violates the 4th amendment protections.
Interesting interpretation. SCOTUS upheld the right of the state to place surveillance cameras in public areas since no one can claim an expectation of privacy in those areas. They also have held that the state may place surveillance equipment on property under its control and therefore have the right to conduct such surveillance on those who willingly enter those areas.
See Katz, it is linked to in a prior post.

No one is arguing video cameras, that is not what the SPO-7 is.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 8:12 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
TK said:

The SPO-7 uses technology that can "peer" beneath clothing and create a threat assessment. Based on either reflected MMW or emitted MMW. (not sure, don't care to look right now and it does not change the argument)
That is essential to the argument. The SPO-7 does not peer under anything. Before making such an argument I would suggest going to the link I provided to additional information on the system and reading. The concept of how it works is absolutely amazing.
The concept is simple, detect density readings on a particular frequency range of radiation. If density equals a set parameter indicate a graphical reference to "threat" level based on that parameter.

The frequency range it does density readings on are out of the visible spectrum. Therefore it does peer beneath clothing.

Ask yourself this. If cameras are allowed because of the plain sight concept, why is the TSA spending a butt load of cash on a visible light spectrum camera and why are they attempting to by pass the Constitution with implied consent signage when they are not needed?
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 8:13 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
Title 49 1540.5 Terms used in this subchapter.
Screening function means the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.
Now THATS what I was looking for. Laws, actual laws that can be referenced and quoted. Thanks.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 9:15 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
TK said:

Because the technology can detect both illegal and private legal activity its usage constitutes a search within the 4th amendment.
So can my eyes, ears, and sense of smell. None of those are considered a search. They all reside clearly within the plain sight rule, as does the way that the SPO-7 system works.
Your eyes, ears and nose are not technologies unless you are Borg. I know the TSA has the same "Resistance is futile" attitude as the Borg, but you are not Borg, are you? If you are, hook me up with 7 of 9.

You are lacking on your understanding of "plain sight". Please read Katz.

You are also lacking on your understanding of the technology used by the SPO-7.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 9:25 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Now THATS what I was looking for. Laws, actual laws that can be referenced and quoted. Thanks.
Unfortunately Francine would not respond directly when this section was quoted to her during the mandatory ID fiasco. Perhaps it is one of the reasons why TSA eventually backed down on some of those measures according to what you have alluded to. So what are the current requirements if you don't want to show ID.

Here was part of that exchange on the blog:

Francine said: As Chief Counsel, I firmly believe that TSA's ID requirements are warranted from a security perspective and entirely legal. Under a TSA regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. 1540.105(a)(2), a person may not enter the sterile area without complying with the systems, measures, or procedures applied to control access to the restricted area in question. Verifying the identity of passengers who access the sterile area falls within this rubric and is, in fact, part of TSAs screening process. It is true that an earlier regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. 1540.5, which sets forth definitions, states that access to the sterile area is generally controlled through the screening of persons and property and that screening function means the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries. The definition of screening function, which focuses on physical inspectionthe most intrusive form of screeningcannot be read to limit the Administrators broad expanse of authority under the operative language of section 1540.105(a)(2) to establish systems, measures or procedures governing sterile area access, including an ID screening process. Certainly, the common definition of screening encompasses methods other than physical intrusion. One definition of screening listed by Google reads as follows: Is the person on a watch-list? Biometric information can be used to determine if a person is cleared to be in a restricted area, or if the person is on a watch list (eg the FBI Most Wanted list). Similarly, under section 1602(a)(5) of the 9/11 Implementation Act, H.R. 1, the definition of cargo screening includes methods other than physical inspection. Given the Administrators fundamental statutory responsibility pursuant to 49 U.S.C. 44901 to secure the aviation transportation system, a unduly narrow construction of 1540.105(a)(5) cannot be justified.


My response: A basic rule of construction concerning the interpretation of CFRs is breached in your analysis. CFRs are to be interpreted in the strictest sense especially when the regulation involves restrictions on individuals and their actions. The agency that promulgates the regulation also is the drafter. As such, if the agency wanted to make the rule broader, it should have drafted it as such.

49 C.F.R. 1540.105(a)(2) addresses not only the sterile area as related to systems, measures and procedures. It also includes secured areas, AOAs and SIDAs. For that reason, the other systems, measures, or procedures being applied to control access to, or presence or movement in, such areas are dependent on the particular area at issue. So, for example, in the case of SIDAs an acceptable system would be the checking of IDs. On the other hand the definition of sterile area sets forth the specifics for those systems, measures and procedures, which is the screening of persons and property. How is that screening accomplished through the screening function, which is defined as inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries. Until the CFR is amended, that is your limit for the sterile area.

You also conveniently left out two words (among others) when you state that access to the sterile area is generally controlled through the screening of persons and property. After the word controlled, the words by TSA were not included. As such, you give the impression that the word generally refers to the screening process when in fact the reference is to the TSA. That is not only disingenuous, but wrong. Boundaries are set for screening of persons and property.

We also dont have a reason to go to Google for definitions of screening. It is contained in the CFR itself. If that definition is too restrictive, you just cant conveniently ignore it; you need to go through the process of amending the regulation. In that manner the Google definition can then be included if you feel it is appropriate to accomplishing the TSA mission. Are you not amenable to that?

I had a very seasoned attorney once tell me that if he was given the opportunity to draft a document, as long as he was able to have free reign over the definitions section, then he would let the other sides attorneys draft the rest of the document. Definitions are a critical and integral part of a legal instrument.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 9:54 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Now THATS what I was looking for. Laws, actual laws that can be referenced and quoted. Thanks.
No problem.

The easiest way I have found to look up statutes is to make sure I include the word "statute" in my seacrh criteria.
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Old Apr 29, 2009 | 10:22 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
There is a very fine line between what some consider courtesy and what others consider rudeness. Its pretty much personal perception, subjective and non-quantifiable. What I see as outstanding customer service others are going to see as brisk, rude, and obnoxious. When one is dealing with individual perceptions there are always going to be disagreements.
I will have to agree with you there. I once sold shoes, please no Al Bundy references, and I had a customer there with his woman. The customer and I were having a great time cutting up and looking for shoes. His woman got a bit nasty and said "I guess you don't care for your job". I replied "what do you mean?"

She said "(sanitized for your protection) you are playing around and making jokes" and in my normal charming self I told her while pointing to my customer "WE are having fun, you can either join in or not. Either way we were going to continue having fun even if it is to spite you" (what the hell, in for a penny in for a pound)

My customer looked at his woman and said "that's right and if you don't like it go wait in the car."

Two people dealing with the same situation, one thought I was being flippant and the other thought I was being a great salesman. (3 pairs)

I wonder if they are still together.
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Old Apr 30, 2009 | 7:40 am
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
Two people dealing with the same situation, one thought I was being flippant and the other thought I was being a great salesman. (3 pairs)

I wonder if they are still together.
The shoes? Probably. Who throws away one shoe?
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Old Apr 30, 2009 | 9:49 am
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Actually, we dont need to be knowledgeable of those laws at all. All we need is a firm understanding of the rules and procedures that have been set out by the upper level management of the TSA. Its helpful, sure, but not necessary.
Oh dear, I feel a Godwin moment coming on .

No it's OK, it passed. Personally, while I have found some screeners to be obnoxious, belligerent and clearly not suited to the task, it is with this "upper level management" that the problem (or something more insidious) lies. They either ignore the laws too (cf. Francine) or else continually just push the envelope knowing that the worst that can happen is they get overruled. Not that that ever happens either.

I would never be a screener, but I have been in situations where clients and others have suggested directions of dubious legality. Was I willing just to take their word for it ? No, I made damn sure what was proposed was unqestionably legal. But hey, that's just me. Clearly it doesn't bother some.
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