ID Holders
Nov 16, 2007, 9:20 am
#16
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: boca raton, florida
Posts: 621
The more dependent society becomes on ID the easier it becomes to get accidentally blacklisted. We have limited recourse right now against the black list.
First our ID must always be presented. Then it must be a standard ID. Then if you don't get a standard ID you are not able to fully partake in society. Then even if you have the standard ID you get blacklisted and told "too bad, fill out this form and wait".
My personal example: I'm just a normal person. When I go to Canada and they see my valid passport they let me in no problem. If they actually swipe my passport I've been flagged and get sent to secondary. If a person uses their own discretion I seem like a normal person, but the computer thinks I'm up to no good. I'm sure Canada's grievance process is as bad as the US's so I haven't bothered.
I don't want to live in a papers please society. First TSA is asking to "present ID", then they want to "handle and investigate" the ID, next it will be swiping and verifying with a centralized database.
I'm not even getting into 1984-esq stuff. I'm just talking about the Real ID stuff coming.
First our ID must always be presented. Then it must be a standard ID. Then if you don't get a standard ID you are not able to fully partake in society. Then even if you have the standard ID you get blacklisted and told "too bad, fill out this form and wait".
My personal example: I'm just a normal person. When I go to Canada and they see my valid passport they let me in no problem. If they actually swipe my passport I've been flagged and get sent to secondary. If a person uses their own discretion I seem like a normal person, but the computer thinks I'm up to no good. I'm sure Canada's grievance process is as bad as the US's so I haven't bothered.
I don't want to live in a papers please society. First TSA is asking to "present ID", then they want to "handle and investigate" the ID, next it will be swiping and verifying with a centralized database.
I'm not even getting into 1984-esq stuff. I'm just talking about the Real ID stuff coming.
Next time you have a chance to talk with the Broward County deputies at FLL ask them if it still their policy to lie about what is required ID or not.
Nov 16, 2007, 3:08 pm
#17
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
Programs: AAdvantage, MileagePlus, SkyMiles
Posts: 4,159
Actually a good portion of that has already happened. At Fort Lauderdale International (FLL) Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Schmidt will tell you that your US Passport is not considered "valid ID" and that the State of Florida law says that you are required to show your driver's license when asked by a law enforcement officer. He is lying on both accounts.
Next time you have a chance to talk with the Broward County deputies at FLL ask them if it still their policy to lie about what is required ID or not.
Next time you have a chance to talk with the Broward County deputies at FLL ask them if it still their policy to lie about what is required ID or not.
http://www.realnightmare.org/
Nov 16, 2007, 3:25 pm
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
It's called an ID holder. It is designed to hold the ID. The correct procedure when presenting an identification card is to physically hand the card over to the person who needs to inspect it. This stems from the tradition of a visiting emissary presenting his credentials to a king as proof of identity. The document was physically handed over to the person who verified its authenticity.
Nov 16, 2007, 4:02 pm
#20
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 15,978
It isn't. But it is a needless hassle that some here find particularly annoying.
Since ID isn't required to fly, what possible purpose is served by badgering people to present it out of the holder?
You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Since ID isn't required to fly, what possible purpose is served by badgering people to present it out of the holder?
Honestly, this is childish.
Nov 16, 2007, 4:15 pm
#22
Join Date: May 2005
Location: MIA/SJU/MCO
Programs: AA LT PLT; DL GLD, UA nothing, B6 Mosaic; Emerald Club Executive
Posts: 3,331
Nov 16, 2007, 4:17 pm
#23
Join Date: May 2005
Location: MIA/SJU/MCO
Programs: AA LT PLT; DL GLD, UA nothing, B6 Mosaic; Emerald Club Executive
Posts: 3,331
Actually a good portion of that has already happened. At Fort Lauderdale International (FLL) Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Schmidt will tell you that your US Passport is not considered "valid ID" and that the State of Florida law says that you are required to show your driver's license when asked by a law enforcement officer. He is lying on both accounts.
Next time you have a chance to talk with the Broward County deputies at FLL ask them if it still their policy to lie about what is required ID or not.
Next time you have a chance to talk with the Broward County deputies at FLL ask them if it still their policy to lie about what is required ID or not.
I dont drive."
Nov 17, 2007, 1:31 am
#24
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southern California
Programs: Starwood, HHonors
Posts: 92
I'm thinking to see if it is faked, and send them to SSSS with all the other no ID folks.
Nov 17, 2007, 3:51 pm
#26
Join Date: Nov 2007
Programs: Continental, Delta, United
Posts: 43
It's called an ID holder. It is designed to hold the ID. The correct procedure when presenting an identification card is to physically hand the card over to the person who needs to inspect it. This stems from the tradition of a visiting emissary presenting his credentials to a king as proof of identity. The document was physically handed over to the person who verified its authenticity.
As pointed out by thegeneral, try getting cute with a police officer bickering over an ID holder and see what happens.
As pointed out by thegeneral, try getting cute with a police officer bickering over an ID holder and see what happens.
Nov 17, 2007, 10:12 pm
#27
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 15,978
The distinctions I'm attempting to draw here are twofold: 1) between real and fake documents; and 2) between real and fake identities (the person as themselves vs. pretending to be someone else).
And then even if ID is presented and then if the TSAer cannot ascertain the validity or falsity of the ID, the pax can still get send to secondary? That doesn't seem efficient or fair.
Nov 17, 2007, 10:17 pm
#28
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: PDX
Programs: TSA Refusenik charter member
Posts: 15,978
Such as?
How so?
Exactly how does matching ID to a BP make the process for screening weapons and explosives more efficient? In the long run, that is?
Simpler and safer to request that the IDbe taken out of the holder.
It is more efficient in the long run.
Nov 18, 2007, 12:19 am
#29
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,700
It's called an ID holder. It is designed to hold the ID. The correct procedure when presenting an identification card is to physically hand the card over to the person who needs to inspect it. This stems from the tradition of a visiting emissary presenting his credentials to a king as proof of identity. The document was physically handed over to the person who verified its authenticity.
b. 99+% of the time, the TSA agent has NO IDEA whether the ID is authentic or not
c. I'd prefer to spend the billions burnt checking IDs on actual security, please.
Nov 18, 2007, 12:56 am
#30
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southern California
Programs: Starwood, HHonors
Posts: 92
How is the TSAer able to ascertain the validity a particular piece of ID presented, given that there are thousands of possible forms of ID used in the world? IOW, how does non-expert in document construction distinguish an excellently forged document from a legitimately-obtained and issued one, w/o prior knowledge of the basis for "real" and "fake"? And how does a ID checker determine whether a particular piece of ID was issued under false pretenses, i.e. one that is "fake?"
The distinctions I'm attempting to draw here are twofold: 1) between real and fake documents; and 2) between real and fake identities (the person as themselves vs. pretending to be someone else).
And then even if ID is presented and then if the TSAer cannot ascertain the validity or falsity of the ID, the pax can still get send to secondary? That doesn't seem efficient or fair.
The distinctions I'm attempting to draw here are twofold: 1) between real and fake documents; and 2) between real and fake identities (the person as themselves vs. pretending to be someone else).
And then even if ID is presented and then if the TSAer cannot ascertain the validity or falsity of the ID, the pax can still get send to secondary? That doesn't seem efficient or fair.
I'm sure no agent could spot the difference between a "good" fake and the real deal. But, it's more likely they could spot a "poor" fake outside of a holder rather than inside it.
Secondary Screening is a joke, but it's the cost of flying in 2007. We have to deal with it.