davidcalgary29

Well, yes! What other valid safety reason exists to deny an individual permission to travel by air? Other potential sources of danger (psychotic ex-spouses; a seatmate infected with Ebola) are either so random or so difficult to detect that the exercise of weeding out these undesirables would be an extraorindarily expensive one indeed.

dhuey

Fugitives from justice regularly try to flee the country. Checking passports of those leaving the country is necessary to catch such fugitives. I cannot see how it's inappropriate or overbearing for government to see if those attempting to leave the country are entitled to do so.

Keep in mind that anyone denied permission to leave has legal recourse. It's not like this is Guantanamo.

DevilDog438

Once again, the government (Local/State/Federal) is not the actual agent performing this checking of passports against a list. The airlines perform this function. There is no government actor intervention, unless an airline staff member notices a hold and notifies one of the airport agencies of the hold.

oneant

See dhuey's post above for the answer to your question.

The no-fly list is not just about terrorism, and it's not just about security/safety. That assumption shows a limit in vision.

I'm not fearful of terrorism. I don't think about it at all when I fly, and the reason for that has nothing to do with a no-fly list or ID checking at the airport.

oneant

So? They're not detaining anyone. They're simply saying, "I'm sorry, Osama, but I cannot give you a boarding pass." If LEO's need to be brought in, they call them over.

dhuey

Fair enough, but various agencies monitor this information regularly, right? And I think such monitoring is entirely appropriate.

Superguy

Or more likely, "sorry Robert Nelson. We can't issue you a boarding pass. Yes, I know there are hundreds with the that name, but we have to be sure that you're NOT the one that's on the list, even though there's no reason to arrest you. You see, this list contains names of people who are too dangerous to fly yet not dangerous enough to arrest. Give the those nice TSA and LEO folks over there 30 minutes of your time and they'll have this thing cleared up. Once you've had your search, I'll be happy to issue your pass. And by the way, please come here 30 minutes earlier next time and don't bother to use the kiosks or online checkin because you'll be subjected to this every time you fly. Have a nice day."

For every one "Osama", there are hundreds of stories like this. And Osama then flies under a different name. Is it really worth hassling the other folks for a foolish "security" mechanism?

davidcalgary29

The no-fly lists in our respective countries were authorized under the rubric of terrorism prevention; use of them for any other purpose is simply not justified in a free society and probably not lawful. They're also pretty much ineffective for the purpose that you've suggested as, unless you live on an Antarctic base, there are typically at least two means of leaving any given country -- and no one has proposed complementary "no sail" lists.

Redundant. Judges will routinely demand that any individual who is deemed to be a flight risk surrender their passport to the Court. Yes, people try and do slip around this system by buying fake passports and other ID, but no-fly lists can't be used to stop them from quietly slipping across the border. The only net result of utilizing no-fly lists for non-security purposes would be to prevent some legitimate flagged travellers (who would be using valid passports and ID) from flying on a plane. We do not have, nor can contemplate, any system that would impose surveillance on "dangers to society" to the point that we could prevent them from leaving the country.

Superguy

So go bust the people that are on the list then and stop hassling the other innocent folks that happen to have the misfortune of sharing the same name.

It's one thing to notify the airport that someone might be fleeing justice and to keep an eye out for them. It's another to harass innocent people simply because they share the name of someone who might be wanted.

Essentially, checking the no fly list is asking permission to fly. If you don't hit, you have no problems. Sorry, I think that's unamerican. YMMV.

Superguy

Alternatively, one could say let those fugitives leave the country and become someone else's problem. Problem solved for us.

davidcalgary29

And better yet, just call the police.

dhuey

You're overlooking the fugitives who are suspects, some of whom have been indicted, and have not been arrested yet (i.e., still hold their passports). Separately, there are many child custody/support disputes were parents and children are lawfully holding passports, but have appropriate court-ordered restrictions on travel.

docmonkey

Also overlooking people with unpaid taxes, unpaid parking tickets, bad credit ratings, illegal music download suspects, etc. Should people in those categories (and all others with the same names) be monitored too?

dhuey

If there's a warrant out for their arrest, yes.

docmonkey

And people with the same name (including children)?