TSA Mythbuster - Secure Flight 72-hr limit

Old Oct 16, 07, 2:39 am
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Lightbulb TSA Mythbuster - Secure Flight 72-hr limit

MYTH: Under the proposed Secure Flight rule, I will not be issued a boarding pass unless I have booked my flight at least 72 hours in advance.

BUSTER: Under the Secure Flight proposed rule, airlines would be required to send passenger data up to 72 hours in advance, when available. This does not mean passengers will be automatically rejected if they need to book a last minute flight.

The Secure Flight system is designed to accommodate the changing needs of the flying public, without compromising security. TSA will have the ability to vet all passenger data provided against the No-Fly list and make boarding pass determinations up until the time a flight leaves the gate.

SOURCE: http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbust...re_flight.shtm
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Old Oct 16, 07, 5:46 am
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MYTH: We live in a country where people are free to travel. As Justice William O. Douglas wrote for the US Supreme Court: "The right to travel is a part of the 'liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived . . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values."

BUSTER: People in the US now require the government's permission to travel, even leave the country. Other countries with exit restrictions: Russia (students must obtain an exit visa), People's Republic of China, Saudi Arabia (only for foreigners, not citizens), the defunct Soviet Union.

Last edited by whirledtraveler; Oct 16, 07 at 5:53 am
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Old Oct 16, 07, 5:54 am
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Originally Posted by whirledtraveler View Post
BUSTER: People in the US now require the government's permission to travel, even leave the country. Other countries with exit restrictions: Russian (for students), People's Republic of China, Saudi Arabia (only for foreigners, not citizens), the defunct Soviet Union.
What permission? You can purchase a ticket in a fake name, claim you have no ID, and still reach your destination domestically. Where is the "permitted" aspect?

What exit restrictions? If you have a valid passport, you can leave the country. Are you being restricted somehow I'm not? If so, why?
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Old Oct 16, 07, 6:01 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
What permission? You can purchase a ticket in a fake name, claim you have no ID, and still reach your destination domestically. Where is the "permitted" aspect?
See how long that lasts.

What exit restrictions? If you have a valid passport, you can leave the country.
Unless you're on the list of people who are not allowed to leave. Do you doubt there is such a list?
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Old Oct 16, 07, 6:03 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
What permission? You can purchase a ticket in a fake name, claim you have no ID, and still reach your destination domestically. Where is the "permitted" aspect?

What exit restrictions? If you have a valid passport, you can leave the country. Are you being restricted somehow I'm not? If so, why?
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/in...cilities/apis/
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Old Oct 16, 07, 6:21 am
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Originally Posted by whirledtraveler View Post
See how long that lasts.
Is this the indirect way to say you were incorrect as to the current state of affairs?
Originally Posted by whirledtraveler View Post
Unless you're on the list of people who are not allowed to leave. Do you doubt there is such a list?
Sure there's a list. Are there possibly people on that list who shouldn't be? I'd bet on it. Are there people who shouldn't be allowed to leave the country? Absolutely. Are those countries you listed the only ones with exit restrictions for certain individuals? No. But if you want to list only your own little "exits of evil" to make a point, go right ahead. It's not a good point, but it's a point.

@ cpx
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.
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Old Oct 16, 07, 6:28 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
Is this the indirect way to say you were incorrect as to the current state of affairs?
No more than you were. Your point was that people can be deceitful at a border to travel. That is true any place and it does not mean that one does not legally require permission.

@ cpx
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.

Forget the link, if you, by choosing to travel, submit your information and the government checks it before allowing you to leave, you do indeed need permission to travel. That's just logic and no amount of rhetoric can change that.

Last edited by whirledtraveler; Oct 16, 07 at 6:33 am
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Old Oct 16, 07, 6:31 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.
I guess we need better signage on the approaching slippery slope...
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Old Oct 16, 07, 8:50 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
If you have a valid passport, you can leave the country. Are you being restricted somehow I'm not? If so, why?
Originally Posted by oneant View Post
@ cpx
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.
Once you've applied for a passport, you've asked for the permission to leave.

When you are about to travel outside of the country, your information is
again reviewed. (indirect permission to leave) if for some reason if they think
you should not leave the country, DHS will make sure you do not leave the
country. Process is different, but concept is the same.
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Old Oct 16, 07, 8:55 am
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Do you not agree that there are certain people who should not be allowed to leave the country?
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Old Oct 16, 07, 9:04 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.
See here:

If a subsequent manifest is submitted less than 60
minutes prior to departure, the private aircraft pilot must resubmit
the arrival manifest and receive approval from CBP for the amended
manifest containing the added or amended information before allowing
the aircraft to depart the foreign location, or the aircraft may be, as
appropriate, denied clearance to depart,

......................
After CBP receives the
submitted information, DHS would send a message to the submitter of the
manifest information before departure from a foreign airport indicating
that the information has been received and specifying whether landing
rights have been granted at the requested airport, granted at a
different airport designated by CBP, or denied.
........................
After receipt of the manifest information, as in the case where the
manifest information is conveyed using a CBP-approved interactive
electronic transmission system, CBP would perform an initial security
vetting of the data and grant, deny, or restrict landing rights as
appropriate.
.........................
And the pilot might not even know why he is being denied the right to travel

DHS is evaluating whether to inform the
pilot, in the event that CBP denies or restricts landing rights for the
plane, which passenger(s) has been identified by DHS on the selectee or
no-fly lists so that the pilot may better understand potential threats
to the security of the aircraft. In addition, such notification could
avoid additional flight delays or disruptions by allowing the pilot to
remove that individual from the flight until such time as the
individual resolves the selectee or no-fly designation with TSA under
TSA's redress system. Accordingly, DHS is soliciting public comments on
the economic costs and benefits of notifying a pilot about an
individual selectee or no-fly match being aboard the aircraft.
And for departures, the same rules apply. You cannot leave the US until CBP approves the departure:

This NPRM proposes to require the pilot of a private aircraft
departing the United States to a foreign port or location to submit a
departure manifest to CBP. Similar to the arrival manifest, the
departure manifest would contain information identifying all
individuals onboard the aircraft. The timeframe for submission of the
departure manifest would be no later than 60 minutes prior to departure
from the United States to a foreign port or location. This NPRM
clarifies the pilot's responsibility to ensure that a departure
manifest regarding all individuals onboard the private aircraft is
submitted
..............
2. Notice of Departure
This NPRM proposes to require private aircraft leaving the United
States for a foreign port or location to obtain clearance from CBP
prior to departing from the United States.
This is still an NPRM with respect to private pilots/non-commercial aircraft. But it parallels the regulations currently in effect for commercial aviation.

3. Aircraft Required To Clear
The existing regulatory language in 19 CFR 122.61 exempts public
and private aircraft from leaving the United States for a foreign area
from having to obtain clearance prior to departing from the United
States. As such, CBP is proposing to revise paragraph (a) of Sec.
122.61 to indicate that private aircraft leaving the United States for
a foreign area are required to obtain clearance from CBP as set forth
in the language proposed for Sec. 122.26. The paragraph will further
state that all other aircraft, except public aircraft, leaving the
United States or the U.S. Virgin Islands are required to clear if they
carry passengers and/or merchandise for hire or take aboard or
discharge passengers and/or merchandise for hire in a foreign area.
..................
E. Landing Rights

CBP currently requires all aircraft arriving at a landing rights
airport to request permission to land, known as landing rights, from
CBP. Given CBP's authority to deny landing rights within the United
States and to restrict landing to airports designated by CBP,\14\ this
NPRM proposes to expressly state CBP's authority to deny permission to
land in the United States and/or limit aircraft landing locations.
The proposal is at: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main

Search for rulemaking USCBP-2007-0064-0001

(direct link not possible)
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Old Oct 16, 07, 9:10 am
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This is all well and good, and does certainly point to the requirement for permission as it pertains to air travel.

But where is it written or stated that the right to travel without permission extends to ALL modes of transportation?
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Old Oct 16, 07, 9:23 am
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Does anyone think Kip is smarter than Buster?

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Old Oct 16, 07, 9:29 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
@ cpx
Please pin down the part where I need permission to travel in that link.
From the previous CBP link, check the pre-departure FAQ at

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/.../apis_faqs.doc

and see Question 3. Passengers are 'not cleared' unless they receive a response (permission to travel) when they will be cleared or become a selectee.

Compare with Question 16 for handling those on a list not allowed to fly.
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Old Oct 16, 07, 9:34 am
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Originally Posted by oneant View Post
This is all well and good, and does certainly point to the requirement for permission as it pertains to air travel.

But where is it written or stated that the right to travel without permission extends to ALL modes of transportation?
Like I'm going to drive my car to Europe.

As a matter of practicality, eliminating the ability to fly presents a de-facto prohibition to traveling to many destinations.
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