law dawg

Oh no. If I did that my momma would be embarrassed.

skylady

I'll say it yet again - give me a knife, a seat in first and five seconds and I can do it.[/QUOTE]

Gun trumps knife.

law dawg

Gun trumps knife.[/QUOTE]

Ah but only if they can get to it......

Google "Tueller Drill" for knife vs. gun if being attacked. If not being attacked they still have to deal with the OODA loop and access their hardware prior to my hypothesized terrorist making it in the flight deck, which would be hard.

Like always, the correct answer is - it depends.

law dawg

Ah but only if they can get to it......

Google "Tueller Drill" for knife vs. gun if being attacked. If not being attacked they still have to deal with the OODA loop and access their hardware prior to my hypothesized terrorist making it in the flight deck, which would be hard.

Like always, the correct answer is - it depends.

bocastephen

I don't think this is an accurate assumption on anyone's part - these were seating configurations from known previous hijackings?

Yes, I am positive, given how long I've been around the business. Most airlines don't do powerbacks anymore due to labor union issues (which flared up when Eastern pioneered the process and have been a sore spot ever since), but a few do them here and there, sometimes at outstations.

Chocked wheels aren't going anywhere...and a hijacked aircraft immobile on the ground is not a hijacked aircraft that endangers anyone - it's a hostage taking which can be dealt with differently.

Perhaps in a controlled environment like a test, but I still doubt the plan's success if carried out in the real life - especially given there is usually more than one FA in the front galley when the door is open and one of them is standing there watching the cabin and would notice someone jumping up.

law dawg

Correct. It even had diagrams for us barely literate types.

I will cede to your superior knowledge on the subject then, but I would like to investigate this a little first. This has been the subject of some discussion amongst some of us re: gaming scenarios. If it is physically impossible that would eliminate that threat right there.

It can be dealt with differently, or not, depending.

Murphy is always a factor, but I can say with authority I've done it. I also agree with your tactic of two FAs, one watching the six, but I'd say that was the exception rather than the rule. Even when there is two usually both of them are looking at the door. It's human nature. We like to look at where the action is.

Clincher

I think you said it was improbable to gain access to the cockpit with a knice (to use your word). You even used the phrase "extremely unlikely".
I was merely using a real experience to prove it can and has happened.

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost....0&postcount=21

I agreed.
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showpost....8&postcount=19
An accomplice would be the one to cooperate with a terrorist. CNN said "the weapons may have been prepositioned by accomplices for use by others". Whether it is a knice, a ice peck, broken gloss, or fark

Flaflyer

Often you will move backwards before any of the main engines are started, the AC and lights still on the APU. Think the APU is powerful enough to engage reverse thrust and power back? This saves wear and tear on the tug who does not have to over come thousands of pounds of forward idle thrust, it saves fuel and running time on the engines by not starting until needed, and it gets the plane away from the terminal so the engines do not suck in so many baggage carts. I've seen planes pushed out in the open and sit for 10 or 15 minutes. This frees the gate for an arrival, and the plane waits on APU only for an ATC hold before it lights the big fires and goes.

bocastephen

I would love to see that document...all of this data was compiled from when? The earliest Cuban hijackings or more recent ones occurring on foreign carriers?

I would say that with chocked wheels and only bypass vents for reverse thrust it's physically (from a realistic standpoint) impossible, unless there is an engineer who wants to refute my assertion. With clamshell reversers and the engines at full power, could the aircraft jump the chocks? I would have to say highly unlikely if they're positioned properly, but perhaps remotely possible if they were loose. However the entire scenario is unlikely given that one has to figure out when the attackers would have time to do all of this...

1) before the jetway is pulled away? the ground staff will notice, be able to see the struggle in the flight deck, secure the wheels and block the aircraft

2) after the jetway is pulled away and the door is closed? The flight deck door is closed at this point - how are they going to get in?

It shouldn't be the exception - and if it is, then there needs to be some retraining done with crews by the carriers. I know on CO, I've never seen the door opened on a narrowbody when there wasn't a FA watching the cabin and often with a cart nearby and the door is open for a brief moment - often less than a couple seconds as someone enters or exits.

law dawg

I still have it.....somewhere.....in all this junk.......somewhere.......

And I believe it dated back to the more political-type hijackings for hostages kind of hijackings. 1980s and up, I believe.

Interesting. Like I said, many of us game different scenarios. "How would I do it" kind of thing. And then you do it with different man-power, different tools
(weapons), etc. This was one of our ideas.

I'd sure like to think so. So long as they don't panic and run around like chickens missing their heads.....



I've seen it done so many different ways I gave up looking for standardization. What the regs call for and real life are often worlds apart.

law dawg

Interesting. Thank you.

ND Sol

We can talk all day about not having knifes on planes (I was on one recently where there were 250 serrated ones handed out to passengers), but we are just swatting at gnats while the elephants in the form of explosives walk on by. See the Washington Post article Law Dawg posted in which explosives can just waltz on through the security checkpoint based on what we are doing today. Effective security requires ETD, not removing shoes and prohibiting liquids.