law dawg

Broken wine glasses work really well in the movies and not so well outside of them.

I'm not a big believer than utility knives are that big a deal. They're slashing weapons, which are not as dangerous as stabbing. Stabbing wounds are inherently more fatal and debilitating due to vital organ damage.

I say again, give me one knife and a flight deck door opened for more than five seconds and I can do it.

law dawg

On average the door is open for close to a minute when dealing with food and up to half a minute for bathroom breaks (pilot has to get out, change places with FA, etc.). More than enough time.......

I've never seen the UA gate so I can't speak to that. I have seen and trained with the beverage cart. I was not impressed. No one was. That thing was a joke to move.

Also, most FAs do this, IME, with their backs to the threat. Not very tactically sound strategy.

BTW, you probably want to be careful with your spelling, like "collapsable" above. It's really "collapsible." I wouldn't want Lumpy or any of his compatriots to interrupt our discussion of ideas and their relative merit with a lecture on proper spelling. Those can be so distracting......

Just looking out for ya Super one. They can be merciless.....

bocastephen

I've never seen this - the flight crew calls the FA to coordinate their exit/entry, a FA is positioned at the entranceway (often with a cart), and the door is open and closed very quickly - there is no way someone could force their way in with all those people blocking the way and a door open for just a few seconds.

On most widebodies, the flight deck door is behind the forward galley, so there is no way for someone in the cabin to tell if the door is open or for how long unless there happens to be sunlight streaming in through the flight deck windows and shining on a wall.

I just don't see this is a credible scenario....and a 9-11 type attack is going to be done at lower altitudes, after takeoff or before landing - and the door is never open at these times. If someone forces their way in over the middle of the ocean or continent, there is plenty of time for authorities to coordinate a response before the aircraft becomes a threat to people on the ground.

law dawg

It depends on the crew. I've seen them have conversations at the doorway before. Some people become complacent......

Depends on the seating.

Or before takeoff. When the door is wide open......

Domestically it's an option at any time as there's usually a target somewhere close.

Internationally it depends. If you're leaving the European continent then you have targets for some time, or at least until you clear GB, flying west.

Also note that this "response" only includes minimizing or mitigating damage to targets on the ground. It doesn't help the pax on the plane much......

jgreen1024

Yes it was. Sorry, I'm originally from Iowa. Nobody can tell when we're joking. I think it has something to do with growing up with corn and really awful weather.

bocastephen

That's something that needs addressing by the airlines with their crews.

It's still a long way to go in a very short time

The door is open at the gate - only clamshell turbofans can powerback, so unless the terrorist has a partner working the tug on the ramp, they're not going anywhere.

It takes an awful long time to descend from 30+ thousand feet - it's not just a few minutes, even in a steep dive. ATC will see exactly what's going on within moments and a response can be coordinated.

True, but with proper door management, it should never be a problem.

law dawg

LMAO.....

law dawg

Not from first, which is a traditional terrorist seating pattern.

I'm confused here? Are you stating that every jet needs a tug?

It doesn't take too long to put the plane in such a dive that it cannot recover. It's not a fighter.

"Should" is not the same as "is."

I'll say it yet again - give me a knife, a seat in first and five seconds and I can do it.

bocastephen

"Traditional" terrorist seating pattern? Outside of some of the 9-11 people sitting in FC, do you have other examples of terrorists or hijackers sitting in FC?

Most do - only DC9/MD8x and B732 can do powerback, outside of a few other models which are rarely flown anymore. Turbojets which use the clamshell or paddles for reverse thrust (they pop off the back of the engine and rotated behind the exhaust nozzle) can do powerbacks (as a matter of procedure), while traditional bypass turbojets which use vents for reverse do not do powerbacks. Regardless, the wheels are still chocked until the tug is ready to push back, or the engines are up and ready for an 'authorized' powerback, so it's highly unlikely the aircraft is going anywhere.

Even if someone took control on the ground, it still has a long way to go to be in position to take-off and there are plenty of opportunities to stop the aircraft.

All aircraft can recover from a dive given the proper intervention...cut the power, reduce speed and pull back slowly but firmly on the control wheel and the aircraft will slow, end the dive and pull up.

Has this been demonstrated in any test drills? This exact scenario...

mikeef

Ya know, first you blame the utility knife, then you blame the corn. Whatever happened to personal responsibility in this country?

Mike

(Yes, this is in jest.)

dlwalt

Has El Al always locked the flight deck doors, is that since 9/11. If the answer is always, makes sense and pretty sad, in retrospective, that US carriers and the FAA were to cheap to put that into place prior to 9/11.

Spiff

What can be accomplished with a knife can be accomplished with a wine glass. Or many other items on the plane.

What's your point? <pardon the pun>

Spiff

And your point is what?

Knices aren't a credible threat to aircraft. Cooperation with terrorists is.

Superguy

Ok, I'll be watching for it on the news.

law dawg

We received a training class that showed the seating configurations of a number of pre-9/11 flights. That's where I got that info.

You sure about this? I'm trying to remember when I fly the number of times a tug is used. Of course, most times I don't see the tug at all anyway....

Sure, but how? By what? You'd have to have something large like a firetruck or the like to block it I'd think. And even if you do, you still have a hijacked plane to deal with....

Again this depends on time.

Done it myself. Of course there were no pilots to subdue but I made it to the front in seconds before anyone even moved and I was in the door. Knocked the FA to the side as I blew by him (role player). Had there been pilots I would have stabbed the first in the neck where it meets the spine. DRT. The other would have to extricate himself from his harness first, where I'd be stabbing him the whole time. That's assuming I could get the door closed. If I couldn't do that fast I'd just push the body of one of the pilots into the yoke and hold him there with body weight. I'd have greater leverage. The steep decent would make a rescue attempt difficult at best. I bet I'd have a good chance at success.