I got the 2nd screening.....
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:20 am
#16
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Originally Posted by Kibison
As to what a Muslim terrorist looks like.....well, they tend to be dark skinned, male, black hair, heavy beards with obvious Persian or Arabic facial features. Yes, all Muslims don't fit this profile but, if you are dark skinned and carry a passport from an Islamic country, then you will get extra screening.
As far as 7/2005 and 8/2006, please check the MSM to verify if the perpetrators or the accused ones are from Persia (sic) or any Arabic state.
Since you seem to be well-versed on how to profile a Muslim, may be you should also differentiate them by their names FYI They may all be Muslims but there are differences in the names of someone from Iran , an Arab state or someone from Pakistan or India for that matter. Back to conspiracy and intell school
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:24 am
#17
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Originally Posted by PatrickHenry1775
I forgot - did McVeigh and Nichols target aviation?
I don't think the people involved behind the Air India flight fit any of the
profile mentioned by: Kibison
secondary screening is not a sign of good security. It means IMHO
something was missed in the first screening..
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:24 am
#18
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Originally Posted by Fishie
The civilians in Iraq didnt ask to be invaded, nor did the civilians in Lebanon or the ocupied teritories pick a fight they cant millitarily win.
You mean the same citizens of the occupied territories who overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel and who is resopnsible for countless deaths of innocent Israeli civilians through "martydom operations"?
Last edited by closecover; Sep 4, 2006 at 10:28 am Reason: Correct some of what are certainly countless spelling errors
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:35 am
#19
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by closecover
You mean the same Lebanese civilians who elected Hezbollah to parliament, who on its own volition invaded soverign Israeli (not sure of spelling) territory, who on its own volition kidnapped an Isreali citizien and who on its own volition fired rockets delibertely targeted at innocent Israeli civilians and killed socres of them?
You mean tghe same citizens of the occupied territories who overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel and who is resopnsible for countless deaths of innocent Israeli civilians through "martydom operations"?
You mean tghe same citizens of the occupied territories who overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel and who is resopnsible for countless deaths of innocent Israeli civilians through "martydom operations"?
How many lebanese who have been arrested by Israel on Lebanese soil are in Israeli prisons?
How long did the Palestines go without Hamas in their government without any improvement in their living conditions?
What caused the war in July was it a terrorist act against civilians or the abduction of two SOLDIERS, want to look at the death tolls with civilians on both sides?
When did Hamas start to indiscriminatly toss rudimentary rockets into Israel and how many did they toss.
How many clusterbombs did Israel drop in the final 24 houres before the cease fire took effect?
Who violated the cease fire?
Its quite sickening that I even have to ask these questions, its sickening that people seem to think its OK for a country to commit acts of horror because hey Terrorists do the same thing.
Have we become so desensitised and emotionally bankrupt that we feel the killing of thousands of civilians is justified because terrorists killed a few hundred.
How can we be any better then terrorists if we too see the slaughter of innocents as colateral damage.
Thats Bin ladin's line for crying out loud, the ....er planely said his beef is not with the American people but with its government and he sees the deads of innocent civilians as collateral damage.
Is it not wrong that the majority of people in democratic countries seem to feel exactly the same way Bin Ladin does?
Should we not prove that we are better then a bunch of terrorists by trying to minimise the unnecesary deaths of innocent people?
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:47 am
#20
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,867
Originally Posted by Fishie
From the top of my head a few current ongoing examples of arnmed conflicts,Nepal maoist rebels, Mongolian civil war, National Liberation Army in Columbia, indiginous rebels in Congo, in ruanda whoops thats 5 already.
I can list many more if you care.
Even the wars that are going on that you mention are not exactly those peoples choices.
The civilians in Iraq didnt ask to be invaded, nor did the civilians in Lebanon or the ocupied teritories pick a fight they cant millitarily win.
You say you dont care about what some people did a decade ago, well I have news for you, its what happened decades ago that determined what the world is like right now.
Donald Rumsfeld who you are apeing in this thread(with his retarded fascism comments) a few decades ago visited Saddam hussein when the entire world was aware that saddam was a piece of .... that tortured and killed his own people, shook saddam's hand and called him a great friend and ally of the United States.
When Saddam gassed an entire Kurdish village(Hallabja) and irani soldiers the US had to protect their ALLY in the middle east and the CIA was isseud a statement blaming Iran for that atrocity(yeah like Iran will use Mustard gas on their own soldiers).
Knowing that, isnt it safe to say that yes we do need to be aware AND care about what happened a day ago, a year ago or decades ago?
Disregarding even that, the hipocrasy in your reasoning and argumentation defies belief.
You say you dont care what a group did 10 years ago or a 100 years ago and then you bring on an event from over 60 years ago to build on your argument(or lack thereof).
To me it seems like the current administration achieved their goals with you, frighten people into submission so they do not question their actions.
I pity you and your and your inability of independant thought.
PS feel free to check up on the historic events I mentioned here, they are all publicly known yet rarely mentioned by the so called liberal media.
I can list many more if you care.
Even the wars that are going on that you mention are not exactly those peoples choices.
The civilians in Iraq didnt ask to be invaded, nor did the civilians in Lebanon or the ocupied teritories pick a fight they cant millitarily win.
You say you dont care about what some people did a decade ago, well I have news for you, its what happened decades ago that determined what the world is like right now.
Donald Rumsfeld who you are apeing in this thread(with his retarded fascism comments) a few decades ago visited Saddam hussein when the entire world was aware that saddam was a piece of .... that tortured and killed his own people, shook saddam's hand and called him a great friend and ally of the United States.
When Saddam gassed an entire Kurdish village(Hallabja) and irani soldiers the US had to protect their ALLY in the middle east and the CIA was isseud a statement blaming Iran for that atrocity(yeah like Iran will use Mustard gas on their own soldiers).
Knowing that, isnt it safe to say that yes we do need to be aware AND care about what happened a day ago, a year ago or decades ago?
Disregarding even that, the hipocrasy in your reasoning and argumentation defies belief.
You say you dont care what a group did 10 years ago or a 100 years ago and then you bring on an event from over 60 years ago to build on your argument(or lack thereof).
To me it seems like the current administration achieved their goals with you, frighten people into submission so they do not question their actions.
I pity you and your and your inability of independant thought.
PS feel free to check up on the historic events I mentioned here, they are all publicly known yet rarely mentioned by the so called liberal media.
Sep 4, 2006 | 10:56 am
#21
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by Kibison
Like I said, the big problem is the lack of a decent education system in the US. Your spelling and grammer make it obvious that you are a product of US Government Schools. I am so sorry. You deserved better.
Far from it, English is my third language and I often type as fast as I talk so forgive me for the typos.
Agree with you on the crappy US education system though.
No child left behind my hiney.
Sep 4, 2006 | 11:54 am
#22
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by VideoPaul
The Transportation Security Administration, the largest federal jobs program wince the WPA, which wasted $11 billion dollars in the 1940s when $11 billion dollars was real money, is there for public reations and to make you FEEL safer while actually having little if any impact on real security issues.
Spending over $5 billion dollars this year alone, they confiscate form passengers intert substances like water, body search elderly nuns and forcibly inspect your shoes for explosives by uing x-ray machine that by their own admission cannot detect explosives.
While many employees simply stand around grriping about their schedules and how long it is until their next break, a very short handful of TSA employees with intelligence and real security accumen perform their duties while knowing full well their efforts are largely window dressing.
Stung by revelations of spendng a lot of money on lavish "awards ceremonies" and "retreats" at posh resort locations, the TSA's public relations--oh, let's call it what it is, "marketing--department trots out soccer mome who travel once every two years on camera saying"ANYTHING for safety" as a wya to justify what amounts to taxpayer funded harrassment of taxpayers.
Keepers of top secret no-fly and top-secret watch lists that American citizens find themselves on with no way to get off or even to find out what got them on the list in the first place, the TSA circumnavigates the basic American legal concepts of "due process" and "presumed innocence" while depriving these citizens of the basic American freedoms of movement and the right to confront their accusers and clear their good names in the absence of actual evdance against them.
Arguing with a TSA employee will get your travel for that day cancelled, further argument gets you arrested. Their employees, I estimate 70% of whom could not pass a police civil service written exam or physical agility test and some of whom managed to slip through basic criminal background checks, operate above the law in the name of "National Security".
The TSA is further evidence that this great country has given up essential libery for a little temporary security, despite Benjamin Franklin's stern adminotions against doing exactly this. They operate in an atmosphere of absolute political correctness so as not to infuriate the far to the left or the special interest lobbying groups that support the rights of islamofascis groups and refuse to denounce their terrorist activities while at the same time screechiugn like wounded birds about how they are so offended by anyone daring to draw any kind of connection parallel between islam and islamofascist terrorism.
The TSA will continue to spend your money to harrass you and keep the deadly chemical known as "Dihydrogen monoxide" out of aircraft cabins, but only if it's been brought on board by you. It will take a sea change in Washington, D.C. and a plurality of citizens bent on the absurd pursuit of their basic rights to change this buearucracy in any real way.
--PP
Spending over $5 billion dollars this year alone, they confiscate form passengers intert substances like water, body search elderly nuns and forcibly inspect your shoes for explosives by uing x-ray machine that by their own admission cannot detect explosives.
While many employees simply stand around grriping about their schedules and how long it is until their next break, a very short handful of TSA employees with intelligence and real security accumen perform their duties while knowing full well their efforts are largely window dressing.
Stung by revelations of spendng a lot of money on lavish "awards ceremonies" and "retreats" at posh resort locations, the TSA's public relations--oh, let's call it what it is, "marketing--department trots out soccer mome who travel once every two years on camera saying"ANYTHING for safety" as a wya to justify what amounts to taxpayer funded harrassment of taxpayers.
Keepers of top secret no-fly and top-secret watch lists that American citizens find themselves on with no way to get off or even to find out what got them on the list in the first place, the TSA circumnavigates the basic American legal concepts of "due process" and "presumed innocence" while depriving these citizens of the basic American freedoms of movement and the right to confront their accusers and clear their good names in the absence of actual evdance against them.
Arguing with a TSA employee will get your travel for that day cancelled, further argument gets you arrested. Their employees, I estimate 70% of whom could not pass a police civil service written exam or physical agility test and some of whom managed to slip through basic criminal background checks, operate above the law in the name of "National Security".
The TSA is further evidence that this great country has given up essential libery for a little temporary security, despite Benjamin Franklin's stern adminotions against doing exactly this. They operate in an atmosphere of absolute political correctness so as not to infuriate the far to the left or the special interest lobbying groups that support the rights of islamofascis groups and refuse to denounce their terrorist activities while at the same time screechiugn like wounded birds about how they are so offended by anyone daring to draw any kind of connection parallel between islam and islamofascist terrorism.
The TSA will continue to spend your money to harrass you and keep the deadly chemical known as "Dihydrogen monoxide" out of aircraft cabins, but only if it's been brought on board by you. It will take a sea change in Washington, D.C. and a plurality of citizens bent on the absurd pursuit of their basic rights to change this buearucracy in any real way.
--PP
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Now, could we please try to keep this thread on-topic rather than succumbing to Kibison's troll?
Sep 4, 2006 | 12:06 pm
#24
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Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
So where should we really be spending our money??
Sep 4, 2006 | 12:07 pm
#25
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One thing that I can't get out of my head. The last few weeks have been "All 9/11, all the time" on the History and Discovery channels. I've seen multiple interviews with the gate agent who checked in Mohamad Atta. The gate agent said that, during the check in, he thought to himself, "If anyone might be a terrorist, it's this guy." He thought so because of a combination of factors -- Atta's middle Eastern appearance was part of it, but, primarily, it was Atta's demeanor. The gate agent said that, though Atta was polite, there was a "look" of intense hatred about him. The gate agent ignored his impressions of Atta, partly because he thought it was, essentially, bigotry and partly because he simply wasn't sure.
I do agree, however, that at this moment in history the danger of terrorism comes almost exclusively from one source (though, obviously, all Muslims and Arabs are not terrorists) -- it's silly to point to McVeigh or Cuban hijackings from 60s to suggest that the terrorism threat is equally dispersed through the entire world population. However, I don't think inclusionary profiling based solely on ethnicity or religion can work because of the difficulty of defining when someone meets the profile.
I do think exclusionary profiling makes sense -- there is little chance that a threat will be prevented by screening 80 year old couples from Des Moines or toddlers from Austin. Similarly, I think screening most FTers -- frequent flyers who fly on business and have years-long histories with the airlines that are readily documented, makes no sense.
Is it possible that some terrorist group will recruit a 70 year old couple from Des Moines? Sure. Is it likely? Absolutely not. It is far more likely that a terrorist will hide some C4 in a radio (this brought down Pan Am 103), pay off some ramp worker to leave a pistol at a seat, or simply use a Stinger missle near an airport.
I also think that security procedures must be flexible enough to, for example, have allowed the gate agent who checked in Atta to have acted on his suspicions without risking being deemed a racist. Unfortunately, I don't think either DHS or TSA, given their current level of administration and training, are capable of exercising this kind of discretion and discrimination.
It is impossible to make flying completely safe from a terrorist determined to bring down a plane, short of introducing the most extraordinary and intrusive security measures. However, security procedures can certainly be refined and focused to maximize benefit and minimize inconvenience to the travelling public -- Israel does it successfully on El Al.
I do agree, however, that at this moment in history the danger of terrorism comes almost exclusively from one source (though, obviously, all Muslims and Arabs are not terrorists) -- it's silly to point to McVeigh or Cuban hijackings from 60s to suggest that the terrorism threat is equally dispersed through the entire world population. However, I don't think inclusionary profiling based solely on ethnicity or religion can work because of the difficulty of defining when someone meets the profile.
I do think exclusionary profiling makes sense -- there is little chance that a threat will be prevented by screening 80 year old couples from Des Moines or toddlers from Austin. Similarly, I think screening most FTers -- frequent flyers who fly on business and have years-long histories with the airlines that are readily documented, makes no sense.
Is it possible that some terrorist group will recruit a 70 year old couple from Des Moines? Sure. Is it likely? Absolutely not. It is far more likely that a terrorist will hide some C4 in a radio (this brought down Pan Am 103), pay off some ramp worker to leave a pistol at a seat, or simply use a Stinger missle near an airport.
I also think that security procedures must be flexible enough to, for example, have allowed the gate agent who checked in Atta to have acted on his suspicions without risking being deemed a racist. Unfortunately, I don't think either DHS or TSA, given their current level of administration and training, are capable of exercising this kind of discretion and discrimination.
It is impossible to make flying completely safe from a terrorist determined to bring down a plane, short of introducing the most extraordinary and intrusive security measures. However, security procedures can certainly be refined and focused to maximize benefit and minimize inconvenience to the travelling public -- Israel does it successfully on El Al.
Sep 4, 2006 | 12:10 pm
#26
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Originally Posted by Kibison
Like I said, the big problem is the lack of a decent education system in the US. Your spelling and grammer make it obvious that you are a product of US Government Schools. I am so sorry. You deserved better.
Happy to be of service.
Sep 4, 2006 | 1:21 pm
#27
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Originally Posted by closecover
You mean the same Lebanese civilians who elected Hezbollah to parliament, who on its own volition invaded soverign Israeli (not sure of spelling) territory, who on its own volition kidnapped an Isreali citizen and who on its own volition fired rockets deliberately targeted at innocent Israeli civilians and killed socres of them?
You mean the same citizens of the occupied territories who overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel and who is resopnsible for countless deaths of innocent Israeli civilians through "martydom operations"?
You mean the same citizens of the occupied territories who overwhelmingly voted Hamas into power whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel and who is resopnsible for countless deaths of innocent Israeli civilians through "martydom operations"?
I suspect Hezbollah will pick up more seats. After Israel pulled out they started giving direct cash payments for re-building to the Lebanese who lost their homes and property.
Here in the United States, it's a year after Hurricane Katrina. Not many homes have been re-built, many people are living in trailer homes just feet apart, and many people are still waiting for assistance. They need money to have homes re-built -- if the Hezbollah can do it to the displaced Lebanese citizens from the recent conflict - fast and efficiently, why can't the US Govt do the same for the Katrina Victims? I do question where the Hezbollah is getting the money from (likely Iran & Syria).
Why is it a terrorist group can provide fast, direct assistance to citizens in Lebanon but the US government is leaving many Katrina victims high and dry?
The Hezbollah also helps Lebanese citizens establish businesses - they help them get the necessary permits, etc. They seem to do a good job at taking care of some Lebanese citizens. I own a business and I don't see the US Govt or a specific political party helping me with permits and other issues.
Now, if you look at what the Hezbollah has done, they are going to get voted into Parliment. As far as I'm concerned, they're a dirty terrorist group, but they are taking care of Lebanese citizens in the south. In return they're being elected to Parliment.
SDF_Traveler
Sep 4, 2006 | 1:36 pm
#28
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Originally Posted by Kibison
Was everyone in the US asleep in history class when rise of Facism and what happened with a policy of appeasement were discussed? Or, is this not taught anymore in the Government Schools of the US?
Sep 4, 2006 | 1:46 pm
#29
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Originally Posted by Kibison
As to what a Muslim terrorist looks like.....well, they tend to be dark skinned, male, black hair, heavy beards with obvious Persian or Arabic facial features. Yes, all Muslims don't fit this profile but, if you are dark skinned and carry a passport from an Islamic country, then you will get extra screening.
Sep 4, 2006 | 1:50 pm
#30
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Originally Posted by Kibison
Was everyone in the US asleep in history class when rise of Facism and what happened with a policy of appeasement were discussed? Or, is this not taught anymore in the Government Schools of the US?