Will they shoot it down?
May 12, 2005 | 1:30 pm
#76
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
Buildings and monuments can be repaired and rebuilt....so far no one is trying to rebuild our national psyche, which appears to be shattered. The administration just uses this fear to their advantage, instead of trying to restore our backbone. Contrast the leadership of Bush with Roosevelt and Churchill...I think they would be ashamed of us.
Panic, cowardice, suspicion....not words anyone would generally associate with our country. It was bad enough when some of us looked at our neighbors with disbelief that they lived in fear, but now we all look like fools as a nation in front of the world.
I think the damage done to our reputation from this event will continue to grow and deepen within the interntional community. I am sure there are folks here who might think the DC authorities did the right thing, and complaining about its execution is an over-reaction, and perhaps they might say 'to hell' with the international community....but reputation and appearances do matter - for a nation that passes itself off as the leader of the free world and a source of strength, power and authority - to show its leadership and citizens running from the capital in a screaming panic while being buzzed by an object that is almost a toy, can only be interpreted as a sign of weakness, excess and silly. I think our global reputation is damaged, and to make it worse, we are being laughed at.
4 years after 9/11 and we still can't properly react to a threat.
What would have been so hard to just:
1) assess the threat and analyze the likelyhood of real danger
2) intercept the aircraft to keep it away from the capital
3) conduct an orderly, managed evacuation of the capital if it was really deemed necessary
As they say, appearances are everything
Panic, cowardice, suspicion....not words anyone would generally associate with our country. It was bad enough when some of us looked at our neighbors with disbelief that they lived in fear, but now we all look like fools as a nation in front of the world.
I think the damage done to our reputation from this event will continue to grow and deepen within the interntional community. I am sure there are folks here who might think the DC authorities did the right thing, and complaining about its execution is an over-reaction, and perhaps they might say 'to hell' with the international community....but reputation and appearances do matter - for a nation that passes itself off as the leader of the free world and a source of strength, power and authority - to show its leadership and citizens running from the capital in a screaming panic while being buzzed by an object that is almost a toy, can only be interpreted as a sign of weakness, excess and silly. I think our global reputation is damaged, and to make it worse, we are being laughed at.
4 years after 9/11 and we still can't properly react to a threat.
What would have been so hard to just:
1) assess the threat and analyze the likelyhood of real danger
2) intercept the aircraft to keep it away from the capital
3) conduct an orderly, managed evacuation of the capital if it was really deemed necessary
As they say, appearances are everything
As to North Korea or any other country for that matter, when it comes to our safety and security I really don't care what they think. We have time and again proven that we are a courageous country and one that will defend our freedom at any cost, we do not answer to them in these matters.
May 12, 2005 | 1:52 pm
#77
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A category 5 hurricane is known to be dangerous. The only real question is its path. A small plane flown by a lost pilot is not known to be dangerous -- and the danger is pretty small even if a terrorist is piloting it. What happened yesterday was a gross overreaction by any standard.
Bruce
Bruce
May 12, 2005 | 2:04 pm
#78
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Originally Posted by bdschobel
A category 5 hurricane is known to be dangerous. The only real question is its path. A small plane flown by a lost pilot is not known to be dangerous -- and the danger is pretty small even if a terrorist is piloting it. What happened yesterday was a gross overreaction by any standard.
Bruce
Bruce
Is it prudent to just blindly assume in this situation that a licensed pilot is stupid enough to fly well into restricted airspace? And if they are going to assume that this could be a terrorist, should we also assume that the grand scheme would be to fly a somewhat harmless Cessna into a building? I'm guessing the caution arose not from the size of the plane, but from what it could be carrying.
May 12, 2005 | 2:46 pm
#79
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Originally Posted by beachbum
A terrorist is also known to be dangerous. The only real question is if it is one. The point being that this was not an act of cowardice. Caution was taken because of a perceived threat, not unlike the potential for being in the path of a hurricane.....
However, the airplane aside, what was done was not an act of caution, it was an act of almost out of control panic. People were running from a tiny little plane! People were falling down, colliding into each other, screaming, panicking, having a heart attack...it looked like a scene from an old Irwin Allen disaster movie. There was nothing cautious in the approach taken by authorities.
Perhaps the best decision was to evacuate the capitol - but given the authorities knew (or certainly should have known) this was a very small and slow personal aircraft, the evacuation should have been done orderly, carefully, and without panic.
For pete's sake, when a fire breaks out in a building we are told to upon hearing the alarm to leave the premises quickly, but without running or panicking...we go through drills to make sure it can be done. But yesterday, a little airplane is buzzing around and people are almost being thrown down the steps of the capitol to get them away. That type of reaction is just stupid, embarassing, and dangerous - as people were actually injured in the melee.
May 12, 2005 | 2:49 pm
#80
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I saw yesterday's events as more panicked, paranoid cowardice from pathetic people. Others saw it differently.
I'm right, and they are wrong. Or at least that's how I see it. I'm sure that others disagree.
I'm right, and they are wrong. Or at least that's how I see it. I'm sure that others disagree.
May 12, 2005 | 2:54 pm
#81
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Interview with one of the F-16 pilots:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/12/cnn...ann/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/12/cnn...ann/index.html
May 12, 2005 | 4:19 pm
#82
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I just don't think it's a particularly good idea to spend time trying to figure out the who/what/where/when/why/how of a situation like yesterday as it's happening. It's easy to sit here at a safe distance (in space and time) and say what should have happened. Had you been in a likely "target" building...what would you have done? I suspect that when some guard bursts into the room and tells you a plane may be bearing down on the building...the last thing running through your head are questions about who might be out in the street with an AK.
IMO, the most embarrasing thing was not that people fled those buildings, but that it was apparently totally disorganized. Given the time/money that's been dropped into [snickering] Homeland Security [/snickering] I would have expected to see a more organized response/evacuation.
Anyone who's ever flown GA, filed a flight plan, listened to a briefing, looked at a chart, etc. knows how no-fly areas are emphasized. When someone strays into one (and over DC for God's sake...how brain-dead do you have to be?), I think it's a reasonable assumption that something is wrong.
As always, this situation just shows that someone's always pissed and disagreeing with how a situation was handled. Not that they'd have done any better or had a more workable idea. Nothing feels as good as criticizing the other guy.
IMO, the most embarrasing thing was not that people fled those buildings, but that it was apparently totally disorganized. Given the time/money that's been dropped into [snickering] Homeland Security [/snickering] I would have expected to see a more organized response/evacuation.
Anyone who's ever flown GA, filed a flight plan, listened to a briefing, looked at a chart, etc. knows how no-fly areas are emphasized. When someone strays into one (and over DC for God's sake...how brain-dead do you have to be?), I think it's a reasonable assumption that something is wrong.
As always, this situation just shows that someone's always pissed and disagreeing with how a situation was handled. Not that they'd have done any better or had a more workable idea. Nothing feels as good as criticizing the other guy.
May 12, 2005 | 5:03 pm
#83
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It really was embarrassing-looking. After reading the interview with the pilot, I've got two observations.
1) Those pilots were extraordinarily stupid. It took three attempts for F16s whipping past them dropping flares before they reacted?
2) It seems they had a pretty good idea that the threat wasn't serious. Why evacuate then? I assume whoever makes the decision realizes he had two choices - evacuate or sit tight. If you evacuate and it's a false alarm, you look foolish. If you sit tight and the Cessna is packed with C4, you get people killed. In hindsight, he made the wrong call. I'm certainly not going to sit here and second guess him, though. When I make decisions at my job, no one dies either way.
1) Those pilots were extraordinarily stupid. It took three attempts for F16s whipping past them dropping flares before they reacted?
2) It seems they had a pretty good idea that the threat wasn't serious. Why evacuate then? I assume whoever makes the decision realizes he had two choices - evacuate or sit tight. If you evacuate and it's a false alarm, you look foolish. If you sit tight and the Cessna is packed with C4, you get people killed. In hindsight, he made the wrong call. I'm certainly not going to sit here and second guess him, though. When I make decisions at my job, no one dies either way.
May 12, 2005 | 5:41 pm
#84
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I don't doubt that TSA, Homeland Security the Secret Service and other agencies will make mistakes. An evacuation might be poorly planned. A flight diversion might prove to be unnecessary.
I think it's unfortunate for them, though, that so many seem to have no appreciation to how difficult their task is. It's obvious that scores of terrorists in the world would kill as many Americans as they could, given the opportunity. Of course, there will be another tragically successful hit. When it happens, expect to see loads of second guessing from the other side, as the post mortem analysis finds points at which the plot could have been foiled.
I think it's unfortunate for them, though, that so many seem to have no appreciation to how difficult their task is. It's obvious that scores of terrorists in the world would kill as many Americans as they could, given the opportunity. Of course, there will be another tragically successful hit. When it happens, expect to see loads of second guessing from the other side, as the post mortem analysis finds points at which the plot could have been foiled.
May 13, 2005 | 9:20 am
#85
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The pilot said:
Then why evacuate?
And I'd like to assure your listeners that that airplane would not have penetrated -- it would not have hit anything in D.C. And it would have been dropped from the sky before that would have happened.
May 13, 2005 | 9:22 am
#86
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Originally Posted by murphy
If you evacuate and it's a false alarm, you look foolish. If you sit tight and the Cessna is packed with C4, you get people killed.
Somebody sure panicked ('made the wrong call' if you prefer). I doubt it was WPD, or security at the Capitol who just got the call and acted. Although I'm quite sure a few of them revelled in the situation.
It wasn't Air Traffic Control/FAA either who figured this was a lost pilot pretty early on - slow moving, legitimate squawk code - and it certainly wasn't the ANG who didn't even request weapons free since there was clearly no need.
It may have been an individual or a 'committee' somewhere along the line who, through lack of information, lack of training or simple lack of judgement decided on code red. The result was something straight out of Potemkin, only the baby carriage shot was missing. And these pictures went around the world. Tee-hee, as Osama would no doubt say
May 13, 2005 | 9:55 am
#87
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Originally Posted by dhuey
I don't doubt that TSA, Homeland Security the Secret Service and other agencies will make mistakes. An evacuation might be poorly planned. A flight diversion might prove to be unnecessary.
I think it's unfortunate for them, though, that so many seem to have no appreciation to how difficult their task is. It's obvious that scores of terrorists in the world would kill as many Americans as they could, given the opportunity. Of course, there will be another tragically successful hit. When it happens, expect to see loads of second guessing from the other side, as the post mortem analysis finds points at which the plot could have been foiled.
I think it's unfortunate for them, though, that so many seem to have no appreciation to how difficult their task is. It's obvious that scores of terrorists in the world would kill as many Americans as they could, given the opportunity. Of course, there will be another tragically successful hit. When it happens, expect to see loads of second guessing from the other side, as the post mortem analysis finds points at which the plot could have been foiled.
Where was the use of common sense, better planning, and better judgment before pulling the fire alarm. They knew there was no way this aircraft was going to get close enough to hit the capital while it was surrounded by the fighter jets - so why evacuate a building in a mobbed panic that has no chance of being attacked? If someone wants to evacuate as a precaution, then let the people walk out in a controlled and orderly manner. I just want some of these people to think things through before making snap judgments.
Most of the problem with this event was the perception...how it looked. The whole world watched our leadership run screaming from a little bitty lost airplane that was poking around miles away. It just looked bad. Perhaps we would still be debating the merits of an orderly evacuation, but at least that perception of uncontrolled hysteria and panic would not have been broadcast worldwide to make us all look like fools.
I don't believe there are 'scores of terrorists' just waiting to attack the USA - there is a threat, sure, but that statement is just abit too panicky for me to buy into. I hate to think there will ever be another successful attack of any kind, but it is also naive to think that. I don't let that fear affect how I run my life, nor do I believe that fear should affect how my country is run either.
May 13, 2005 | 10:35 pm
#88
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Originally Posted by HeHateY
Explain to me again why GA aircraft want access to DCA?
And why is DCA even open if flying within 5 miles od the WH is such a threat?
And why is DCA even open if flying within 5 miles od the WH is such a threat?
May 14, 2005 | 5:46 am
#89
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Originally Posted by murphy
What's the cargo capacity of a cessna? 2000 or 3000 lbs? If you fill a cessna with a ton of explosives will it do more than scratch paint?
I think the pilots were dumb for doing what they did, but the overreaction was equally dumb. This plane might scratch paint on a building and nothing more.
May 14, 2005 | 1:37 pm
#90
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Originally Posted by exerda
The current plan would make it so asininely annoying that I doubt very many people will take advantage of GA into DCA... the news had reported that after certain corporate and quasi-government flights were allowed, GA possibly would be, but that the planes would have to land at a "nearby" airport (Manassas, Leesburg, etc. I guess) for "screening" before being allowed to go onto DCA. What a crock.
I strongly believe limited GA traffic should be allowed into DCA without having to "stop" at a nearby airport before proceeding. DCA is an important airport for the nation's capital and especially convienient for business travelers who use GA because of its location.
Yes, it is close to 'sensitive' buildings, but I believe a solution can be found to allow GA without requiring all aircraft to land at a nearby airport for security checks. Perhaps some pilots who intend to use DCA on a regular basis could go through a process to obatin approval, while others could be subject to a security check at a nearby airport who need to use DCA on rare occassion -- this way DCA remains open to the GA community as it was prior to 9/11.
While on another topic, anyone remember Meig's Field in Chicago and what happened to it after 9/11? IIRC, Mayor Daily ordered the runway demolished at night without any approval in the name of "safety". No one saw it coming and there were many aircraft stationed at the field when this happened which had to be flown out on a taxi-way. This seems to be a sore spot among GA pilots in the Chicago Area plus Meigs was important to the already strained CHI ATC system, as well as medical flights which used the airport.
Anyone feel safer yet? Boo!
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