Why is the Opt Out available?
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist


Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: From ORK, live LCY
Programs: BA Silver, M&M*G, HH Gold, ABP, Seigneur des Horaires des Mucci
Posts: 14,919
#62
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 240
I don't want to be irradiated by machines whose safety is not tested, whose radiation is not calibrated by any professional and which are suspected of increasing the risk of skin cancer. I also do not want images of my naked body to be on display to anyone who is not a physician, nurse or radiation tech.
I don't want any stranger touching my hair, breasts, buttocks, inner thigh and genitals. I don't want any stranger peering inside my pants.
I'd rather die. Is that clear?
Can you use that to 'improve how TSOs interact with passengers'?
I don't want any stranger touching my hair, breasts, buttocks, inner thigh and genitals. I don't want any stranger peering inside my pants.
I'd rather die. Is that clear?
Can you use that to 'improve how TSOs interact with passengers'?
@Bart - if you want some feedback, here is some from me. Now, I don't dislike anyone (including the TSA) and I agree that we should have some security at the airports. That being said, no agency, police, FBI, or TSA, can prevent EVERY bad thing from happening.
At the airports, why can't we have metal detectors, dogs that can detect explosives, and the use of wands as a secondary search? Also, the airlines could maybe look at the travel records and background of people on the no-fly list. If someone has been to Yemen or some other "terrorist" country 50 times in the last year, has had lots of money activity in a bank account that is suspected to have terrorist ties, they are a member of some rebel islamic extremist group and they have a webpage stating that they hate americans, then yes, we could perhaps profile that person. I don't think people realize that profiling is not just based on skin color, it can be used to track other criteria that the average innocent Muslim passenger is not going to be involved in.
Yes, sometimes the terrorists might use sleeper people or people we would not suspect but hopefully, we can stop them another way. If someone bad were to get on a plane and try something, the passengers would fight back and some may even die "heroically" fighting the bad guy. Didn't that already happen on one of the 9/11 hijacked flights? You hear stories of people who risk their lives to rescue other people. Don't the police and firemen do that every day? There is no such thing as 100% absolute security.
The risk of dying in a terrorist attack is not that large when compared to other risks such as dying in a car accident, a tornado, an earthquake, a flood, or from a horrible transmittable disease, etc. The police can not prevent all murderers from killing people. The government can not possibly prevent all terrorist attacks. Does that mean that we should all live in fear and over react? Why can't we just live our lives and not live in fear? Aren't we supposed to be the land of the brave and FREE?
@Bart - the next time you see one of your tso's "yelling" at a passenger, put yourself in our shoes and try to see how we feel. We don't know the rules (such as what is allowed, private room searches, what kind of touching we can expect). It's not a fun "game" to play when we don't even know what is expected of us. Most of us are just scared of the tso's. Lots of people do not want a stranger touching them or looking at them naked. I think many children would be freaked out by the new procedures. Our country is filled with smart people and universities, I'm sure someone can invent a non-invasive machine that can detect explosives without it being so offensive or contain radiation or microwave waves. The metal detectors worked amazingly well for the past 10 years after 9/11!!!!!
Thank you, Bart. Maybe you can be the one person who might be able to make a difference. I wish you a good day.
Last edited by average_passenger; Apr 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm
#63
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,389
I don't want to be irradiated by machines whose safety is not tested, whose radiation is not calibrated by any professional and which are suspected of increasing the risk of skin cancer. I also do not want images of my naked body to be on display to anyone who is not a physician, nurse or radiation tech.
I don't want any stranger touching my hair, breasts, buttocks, inner thigh and genitals. I don't want any stranger peering inside my pants.
I'd rather die. Is that clear?
Can you use that to 'improve how TSOs interact with passengers'?
I don't want any stranger touching my hair, breasts, buttocks, inner thigh and genitals. I don't want any stranger peering inside my pants.
I'd rather die. Is that clear?
Can you use that to 'improve how TSOs interact with passengers'?
If, however, they object to having to undergo the pat-down, I tell them to notify the supervisor and to not get into a urinating contest with the passenger.
The rest of it is purely your baggage to deal with.
#64
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,389
Some Feedback for Bart the TSO
@Bart - if you want some feedback, here is some from me. Now, I don't dislike anyone (including the TSA) and I agree that we should have some security at the airports. That being said, no agency, police, FBI, or TSA, can prevent EVERY bad thing from happening.
At the airports, why can't we have metal detectors, dogs that can detect explosives, and the use of wands as a secondary search? Also, the airlines could maybe look at the travel records and background of people on the no-fly list. If someone has been to Yemen or some other "terrorist" country 50 times in the last year, has had lots of money activity in a bank account that is suspected to have terrorist ties, they are a member of some rebel islamic extremist group and they have a webpage stating that they hate americans, then yes, we could perhaps profile that person. I don't think people realize that profiling is not just based on skin color, it can be used to track other criteria that the average innocent Muslim passenger is not going to be involved in.
Yes, sometimes the terrorists might use sleeper people or people we would not suspect but hopefully, we can stop them another way. If someone bad were to get on a plane and try something, the passengers would fight back and some may even die "heroically" fighting the bad guy. Didn't that already happen on one of the 9/11 hijacked flights? You hear stories of people who risk their lives to rescue other people. Don't the police and firemen do that every day? There is no such thing as 100% absolute security.
The risk of dying in a terrorist attack is not that large when compared to other risks such as dying in a car accident, a tornado, an earthquake, a flood, or from a horrible transmittable disease, etc. The police can not prevent all murderers from killing people. The government can not possibly prevent all terrorist attacks. Does that mean that we should all live in fear and over react? Why can't we just live our lives and not live in fear? Aren't we supposed to be the land of the brave and FREE?
@Bart - the next time you see one of your tso's "yelling" at a passenger, put yourself in our shoes and try to see how we feel. We don't know the rules (such as what is allowed, private room searches, what kind of touching we can expect). It's not a fun "game" to play when we don't even know what is expected of us. Most of us are just scared of the tso's. Lots of people do not want a stranger touching them or looking at them naked. I think many children would be freaked out by the new procedures. Our country is filled with smart people and universities, I'm sure someone can invent a non-invasive machine that can detect explosives without it being so offensive or contain radiation or microwave waves. The metal detectors worked amazingly well for the past 10 years after 9/11!!!!!
Thank you, Bart. Maybe you can be the one person who might be able to make a difference. I wish you a good day.
@Bart - if you want some feedback, here is some from me. Now, I don't dislike anyone (including the TSA) and I agree that we should have some security at the airports. That being said, no agency, police, FBI, or TSA, can prevent EVERY bad thing from happening.
At the airports, why can't we have metal detectors, dogs that can detect explosives, and the use of wands as a secondary search? Also, the airlines could maybe look at the travel records and background of people on the no-fly list. If someone has been to Yemen or some other "terrorist" country 50 times in the last year, has had lots of money activity in a bank account that is suspected to have terrorist ties, they are a member of some rebel islamic extremist group and they have a webpage stating that they hate americans, then yes, we could perhaps profile that person. I don't think people realize that profiling is not just based on skin color, it can be used to track other criteria that the average innocent Muslim passenger is not going to be involved in.
Yes, sometimes the terrorists might use sleeper people or people we would not suspect but hopefully, we can stop them another way. If someone bad were to get on a plane and try something, the passengers would fight back and some may even die "heroically" fighting the bad guy. Didn't that already happen on one of the 9/11 hijacked flights? You hear stories of people who risk their lives to rescue other people. Don't the police and firemen do that every day? There is no such thing as 100% absolute security.
The risk of dying in a terrorist attack is not that large when compared to other risks such as dying in a car accident, a tornado, an earthquake, a flood, or from a horrible transmittable disease, etc. The police can not prevent all murderers from killing people. The government can not possibly prevent all terrorist attacks. Does that mean that we should all live in fear and over react? Why can't we just live our lives and not live in fear? Aren't we supposed to be the land of the brave and FREE?
@Bart - the next time you see one of your tso's "yelling" at a passenger, put yourself in our shoes and try to see how we feel. We don't know the rules (such as what is allowed, private room searches, what kind of touching we can expect). It's not a fun "game" to play when we don't even know what is expected of us. Most of us are just scared of the tso's. Lots of people do not want a stranger touching them or looking at them naked. I think many children would be freaked out by the new procedures. Our country is filled with smart people and universities, I'm sure someone can invent a non-invasive machine that can detect explosives without it being so offensive or contain radiation or microwave waves. The metal detectors worked amazingly well for the past 10 years after 9/11!!!!!
Thank you, Bart. Maybe you can be the one person who might be able to make a difference. I wish you a good day.

The AIT does not emit unsafe doses of radiation. However, I agree that it should not be the primary screening method. But it is a screening method that we should use under certain circumstances (e.g. the Level 2 screening method). Believe it or not, there are some people who prefer the AIT to the WTMD, and they should still have that option (people with hip replacements or other similar implants can screen through without any additional hassles). TSA is looking at a process that would eliminate the image officer at the AIT station. I don't know if it will ever come to fruition; however, it would involve a screen visible to both screener and passenger that basically shows an outline avatar of a human shape with areas highlighted that need to be searched. The computer basically does all the "viewing" and "decision-making."
I am not in favor of profiling for many reasons. However, (and I've said this to a manager who freaked out when I said it), if Osama bin Laden were to clear security, then we shouldn't have a problem allowing him aboard. He may be a wanted terrorist, but on that day, he didn't have a bomb or any other weapons on his person. He was just another passenger. (No, I'm not advocating that bin Laden be allowed on board; my point is that our job is to make sure no dangerous objects are brought on board. It's up to the FBI or CIA to capture/arrest bad guys.)
I'm not a big fan of the TDC; however, I believe TSA ought to man the checkpoint at the initial entry point. I do agree that we ought to tone down a lot of the hooplah that goes on at the TDC simply because it's nothing more than a huge administrative process that keeps some bureaucrat somewhere happy but does little to truly enhance security. There are other efforts more worthy of our time and your taxpayer dollars.
Did I surprise anyone?
#66
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 240
Yes, I tell them to not get into any arguments or discussions with passengers. If a passenger objects to going through the AIT, then respect that decision but give them a clear explanation of the pat-down that they will have to undergo so that they make a well-informed decision. I'm all for no surprises, and I tell my officers that it is well worth the time and effort to explain this upfront.
If, however, they object to having to undergo the pat-down, I tell them to notify the supervisor and to not get into a urinating contest with the passenger.
The rest of it is purely your baggage to deal with.
If, however, they object to having to undergo the pat-down, I tell them to notify the supervisor and to not get into a urinating contest with the passenger.
The rest of it is purely your baggage to deal with.
Most people have no problem with the old version of the pat-down used as secondary screening, esp. after alarming a metal detector multiple times.
Seriously, what was wrong with the old version of the pat-down? We had metal detectors and old-version pat downs for so long and you know what, it worked!!
The US government is in serious debt, other countries can no longer absorb our debt, the government should cut down on spending before we're really broke and become a third world country in terms of our economy. Lol, I guess this isn't an issue with the TSA but more of an issue for the government. Mr. President, how about using the money to take HELP your people instead of spending millions and millions of dollars on expensive body scanners. Many people can barely afford gas for their cars let alone even afford to fly. The old method (metal detectors and wanding) worked just fine, now use that money to help your people.
Note - I'm not a fan of either political party so please don't turn this into a political debate. Can anyone not see that this body scanner money could be used in so many other ways?
Last edited by average_passenger; Apr 23, 2011 at 6:24 pm Reason: left out a word
#67
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
Many of us have been saying the same thing for years now. Sadly, our elected officials are only thinking of the next election cycle, not about what is good for the country.
#68
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 240
Well, there are many Americans simply struggling to find work or are surviving from pay check to pay check. I see it all around me. Meanwhile, people like Chertoff, Napoliatano, and Pistole are flying around in their private jets (and not subject to the same security screenings), getting rich off of the scanner machines. The money use for these machines could instead be used to help people and the economy. What is happening to America?
#70
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
To be fair ... is it the fault of the teacher when the student doesn't learn? There's shared responsibility all around.
Full disclosure: I'm a teacher. I'll admit I'm not perfect ... but, then again, neither are my students.
Full disclosure: I'm a teacher. I'll admit I'm not perfect ... but, then again, neither are my students.
#71
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 30,985
In some things yes and in some things no. For example, (and I don't want to lead to this turning into a merged thread), the TSO who patted down the six year old girl followed procedure to the letter. However, I believe that she should have had a degree of latitude specifically for patting down small children. Example: I agree that patting down the inside of the waistband was not necessary, and that patting down the waistband from the outside would have been sufficient. However, the TSO does not have that latitude.
As for prohibited items, yes, should be pretty black and white. On the plus side, you have to admit that this is far better than when we originally had to prohibit scissors, small screwdrivers, cigar cutters and other similar items. Of course, we took a step backwards when we decided to prohibit liquids, gels and aerosols.
As for prohibited items, yes, should be pretty black and white. On the plus side, you have to admit that this is far better than when we originally had to prohibit scissors, small screwdrivers, cigar cutters and other similar items. Of course, we took a step backwards when we decided to prohibit liquids, gels and aerosols.
What is it about these SOP's that seem so difficult to implement in the field?
#72
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 30,985
Either the students lack intelligence to learn that particular information, or there is a communication barrier, the material is not clear, or the teacher can't teach. Perhaps some of all of those reasons. I'm sure there are other reasons.
What is clear is that TSA is not getting the training job done very well.
I was an instructor during my military service career. I had one person who I had tried everything I could think of to teach one point. I finally cracked the barrier by sketching a diagram of a fairly complex system and for some reason the light came on. The learning curve went up drastically after that moment for that person. In fact he became an instructor some years later.
#74
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,389
One of the things that cannot be addressed inside a classroom setting are all the dynamics that occur on the floor ranging from disagreeable passengers to demanding airport executives who speed dial the FSD whenever the line appears longer than reasonable. (By the way, one of my pet projects I'll do when standing in line to the movies, at the grocery store, etc. is note the waiting time before attended to, serviced, etc. and compare that to the average wait time at the airport, but I digress.) Point is that there are a host of factors that cannot be addressed in a lesson plan.
The real issue is the distinction between training, which lays the foundation for implementing the SOP, and leadership, which ensures that the SOP is carried out effectively. What I've observed about government service is that it encourages management and mistakenly calls it leadership. I learned all about leadership in the military, and TSA sorely misses the boat. But I think that applies to any large corporation be it private or government.
At my airport, we've implemented some initiatives to bridge the gap between what's taught in the classroom and what's actually implemented on the floor. But there are a lot of intangibles that affect how decisions are made and procedures are carried out. It's something that needs to be worked on continuously; there's never a point when one can sit back, pat oneself on the back, and be satisfied that the goal has been met.
#75
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,389
Fair question.
Either the students lack intelligence to learn that particular information, or there is a communication barrier, the material is not clear, or the teacher can't teach. Perhaps some of all of those reasons. I'm sure there are other reasons.
What is clear is that TSA is not getting the training job done very well.
I was an instructor during my military service career. I had one person who I had tried everything I could think of to teach one point. I finally cracked the barrier by sketching a diagram of a fairly complex system and for some reason the light came on. The learning curve went up drastically after that moment for that person. In fact he became an instructor some years later.
Either the students lack intelligence to learn that particular information, or there is a communication barrier, the material is not clear, or the teacher can't teach. Perhaps some of all of those reasons. I'm sure there are other reasons.
What is clear is that TSA is not getting the training job done very well.
I was an instructor during my military service career. I had one person who I had tried everything I could think of to teach one point. I finally cracked the barrier by sketching a diagram of a fairly complex system and for some reason the light came on. The learning curve went up drastically after that moment for that person. In fact he became an instructor some years later.
So I guess all of your students ended up as Soldier of the Quarter, made the NCO ranks on the first attempt and walked away with all sorts of medals and awards? No troops who washed out or had any disciplinary problems whatsoever because of your perfect instruction?


