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Originally Posted by TSORon
(Post 15077127)
Folks here are taking what they read or hear in the media and either taking it as “gospel” or are interpreting it to fit their own meanings. I watch TV as well as everyone else, I see the news reports, and I get a good laugh from it. Watching the reporters try and spin the new procedures into something evil or invasive or down-right intrusive. Its how they get ratings or sell news papers I suppose, but they are getting it wrong for the most part.
But, as you note, they get it wrong for the most part, even when they're buying the agency propaganda. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15073846)
Ok, but I wasn't talking about that at all.
The only point of my comment is it is very unrealistic to claim or expect no TSA employees not to break laws. ANY organization, public or private, with over 50k employees, will have some employees who violate law/policy. And then I said in the particular example brought up, follow up with supervisors why th procedure was performed, and if your not happy, follow up with management. You might be surprised with te results, if it turns out procedure was violated. I do have to agree with you completely though, it is very unrealistic to expect no TSA employees to not break the law. Precedent shows breaking the law by TSA employees to be an expected outcome. |
Ron,
Thanks for the advice, but I've suffered enough grief based on the incompetencies of the TSA and the erosion of my human rights. I appreciate your concern for my mental state and legal resources, but one does not play chess one move at a time. Iff we are making a mountain out of a mole hill, then I'll take a few days off reading FT to let cooler heads prevail. But I have just one simple question: During a normal WBI opt-out, without alarming the WTMD, puffer, or baggage x-ray, will the hand of a TSO ever touch the genitalia (and/or breasts) of a passenger? If the answer is no, then I'll see you in a few days. If the answer is "yes" or "maybe", well then there's the rub. As a law abiding citizen, there are two clear things that I refuse to authorize the government (or any government agent) violate for me and my family: thoughts and privates. Obviously these aren't the only two. But once these are gone, what purpose is there to be an individual if the mind and the body have been violated? I don't buy into the "anything for security" mantra. I fight terrorism by not participating in it. That is, I fight terrorism by not being terrorized. After 9/11, I just increased my life insurance policy for my family's sake and kept traveling. We aren't just fighting an asymmetric war against terrorist, we are fighting for our ideals. Or at least what our ideals used to be. I think Michael S. Roberts signature in the other post puts it quite eloquently: Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium Ron Relax, the new invasive pat down stops when the problem is figured out or when it is determined that it cannot be, figured out that is.
If it is the latter of the three, then we have a problem because any action we take can always be surmounted by a person dedicated enough. What’s to stop putting things inside of bodies, either cavities or otherwise? What’s to stop a mole or sleeper agent from being an airport employee, or somebody else with access? What’s to stop a person from getting through the weakest link in the system, be it an airport or sympathetic TSO? It’s already been acknowledged that with a workforce of 50k, there are bound to be bad apples. Look, I don’t have a problem with security measures if they are effective, well thought out, and commensurate with the risk. However, in my opinion the visible actions taken by the TSA in the past few years are not well thought out unless they are for security theater only. As I’m sure most frequent travelers can attest to, I know of multiple instances where people have accidentally made it through multiple checkpoints with weapons. In one case it was a steak knife in a computer bag that made it from the US to Canada…and back! I'm sorry for the two post directed at you, but since you took the time in your lengthy response, I felt I should return the favor. |
Originally Posted by doober
(Post 15079502)
"Cause" for the super secret pat down is a positive ETD, hence the concentration on the crotch. Fighting the last war.
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
(Post 15079723)
You apparently didn't like not being able to control the direction of this discussion.
I do have to agree with you completely though, it is very unrealistic to expect no TSA employees to not break the law. Precedent shows breaking the law by TSA employees to be an expected outcome.
Originally Posted by TSORon
(Post 15077127)
Uhhh, wow. I just finished reading the entire thread and am totally blown away. Here are some points:
Richard Kenner – Wow dude, these have been the most concise and thoughtful posts I have seen to date. I stand in awe of them, completely. I just cannot compliment them enough. ^^^ Eyecue – Try and be just a bit clearer guy (initial post to thread). I understand what you are getting at, but many here wont. OTOH, post #57 was as clear and accurate as any I have seen. Well done sir. Uavking – When I was a military policeman (way back when) I was trained extensively on pat-down procedures, for anyone prisoner of war or otherwise (civilians included!). The one that TSO’s give now is a cool breeze when compared to that. As a trainee I went through it many times, I can attest as to how effective and how painful it was. TerminalBliss – Thanks for the quote. Not being former Army myself it’s kind of nice to see what one of the other services does. Hedwigkin – Your plan, while entertaining, will only get you grief. And lots of it. Please think long and hard before you give it a try, and make sure you have an attorney on retainer.:cool: harpodamann – Actually, he does know what he is talking about. @:-) Commentary: I have followed all of the threads here on this subject and there has been one error that has been made consistently. Folks here are taking what they read or hear in the media and either taking it as “gospel” or are interpreting it to fit their own meanings. I watch TV as well as everyone else, I see the news reports, and I get a good laugh from it. Watching the reporters try and spin the new procedures into something evil or invasive or down-right intrusive. Its how they get ratings or sell news papers I suppose, but they are getting it wrong for the most part. There is very little change in how TSO’s do pat-downs. Sorry, the changes are just not big enough for all of this furor and uproar, and I can say this because I am one of the one’s doing the pat-downs. Its just not that big a change, stop making it more than it is. Yes, there is another pat-down that I am not allowed to do. Yes, its more invasive. No, its not a “strip search”. One of the things that people here are missing is that it is only done for “cause”. If you don’t know what that means then look it up. You folks are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Take a deep breath and climb down off that horse. Relax, the new invasive pat down stops when the problem is figured out or when it is determined that it cannot be, figured out that is. And it happens so rarely that a report is generated that goes all the way to TSA HQ, each and every time. Its something HQ wants to keep a very close eye on, and as such if it becomes too big a problem or does not do what it is designed to do then they can make immediate changes to it. Just stop buying hook line and sinker into the artificially generated hysteria. If you read the whole thread you can see who is generating and who is buying.
Originally Posted by MikeMpls
(Post 15078357)
Then you have a problem, because ultimately you work for us, the American people, and the American people who fly are increasingly unhappy with what you are up to.
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15066743)
The regular pat-down is performed in public, and can be performed by a TSO.
The one I mention - performed only for cause - can not be performed by a TSO, nor are TSOs trained in that procedure - and is to be performed in private. This is the one that has people up in arms, though it is very very rare. Almost all of you will neve experience this, or if so it will take years, I would guess. There are only 2 pat-downs, both I just mentioned, obviously. Personally, if I were in the position of being subject to the "for cause" patdown I'd want it to take place in public, both because I like the idea of having witnesses/showing others what these searches entail and because I think being in the public security checkpoint would be better for my piece of mind than being in some interrogation-type room. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15080573)
I you think so. All I will say is your answer should include more ;)
The TSA's sexual perverts are taking advantage of passengers more and more, and escalated same-sex touching of sex organs is just what the TSA "security" perverts want to do in this regard. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15080604)
I agree that the changes in the pat-down are minor, and it is being badly misreported my the media. But does that surprise you? They make soooo many mistakes, never correct themselves, and I have to wonder how much of it is done on purpose?
Let say the media does have the pat down controversy blown out of proportion. I agree that is a possibility. There is one immediate fix if true. Publish the procedure and demonstrate publicly how the pat down is conducted. No loss of security would result from showing how the pat downs are done unless the pat downs are ineffective in the first place. Just as TSA could publish exact WBI images if they wished to stop all the speculation of how the images appear. And if TSA did publish both Backscatter and MMW images with no contraband present on the person then just what compromise of the detection capabilities would be at risk? We don't want to see how a weapon appears, we want to see how our bodies appear in the image. Until TSA decides to act in a responsible manner towards the public I will side with the media on these subjects. edit to add: SATTSO, TSORon, eyecue, TSA1Dude or any other TSA employee; the link I am posting includes a first person interview of a person TSA screened. After listening to the interview tell us if you think the person is being dishonest. http://www.infowars.com/tsa-fondles-...body-scanners/ |
I may have missed it, but has anyone seen any of our lovely TSO members answer the question, which has been posted multiple times in this thread alone and several times in most of the other WBI-related threads, about whether a passenger receiving the Alarm Resolution is forced into a private room by TSA? If so, how does TSA justify this violation, since they do not have the power to detain anyone?
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Originally Posted by DevilDog438
(Post 15081494)
I may have missed it, but has anyone seen any of our lovely TSO members answer the question, which has been posted multiple times in this thread alone and several times in most of the other WBI-related threads, about whether a passenger receiving the Alarm Resolution is forced into a private room by TSA? If so, how does TSA justify this violation, since they do not have the power to detain anyone?
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
(Post 15081548)
Has any TSA member acknowledge that there is an "Alarm Resolution" pat down?
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Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15080604)
They make soooo many mistakes, never correct themselves, and I have to wonder how much of it is done on purpose?
Right? ;) |
Originally Posted by DevilDog438
(Post 15081494)
I may have missed it, but has anyone seen any of our lovely TSO members answer the question, which has been posted multiple times in this thread alone and several times in most of the other WBI-related threads, about whether a passenger receiving the Alarm Resolution is forced into a private room by TSA? If so, how does TSA justify this violation, since they do not have the power to detain anyone?
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Originally Posted by DevilDog438
(Post 15081494)
I may have missed it, but has anyone seen any of our lovely TSO members answer the question, which has been posted multiple times in this thread alone and several times in most of the other WBI-related threads, about whether a passenger receiving the Alarm Resolution is forced into a private room by TSA? If so, how does TSA justify this violation, since they do not have the power to detain anyone?
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Originally Posted by blondedawn
(Post 15082358)
Furthermore, do they involve LEO to herd the unwilling passengers to the private screening area and/or keep them there?
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Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080494)
Ron,
Thanks for the advice, but I've suffered enough grief based on the incompetencies of the TSA and the erosion of my human rights. I appreciate your concern for my mental state and legal resources, but one does not play chess one move at a time.
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080494)
Iff we are making a mountain out of a mole hill, then I'll take a few days off reading FT to let cooler heads prevail. But I have just one simple question:
During a normal WBI opt-out, without alarming the WTMD, puffer, or baggage x-ray, will the hand of a TSO ever touch the genitalia (and/or breasts) of a passenger?
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080494)
[If the answer is no, then I'll see you in a few days.
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080534)
Ron
Now this can be interpreted a few different ways. Could you define: “problem”?
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080534)
If it is the latter of the three, then we have a problem because any action we take can always be surmounted by a person dedicated enough. What’s to stop putting things inside of bodies, either cavities or otherwise? What’s to stop a mole or sleeper agent from being an airport employee, or somebody else with access? What’s to stop a person from getting through the weakest link in the system, be it an airport or sympathetic TSO? It’s already been acknowledged that with a workforce of 50k, there are bound to be bad apples.
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080534)
Look, I don’t have a problem with security measures if they are effective, well thought out, and commensurate with the risk. However, in my opinion the visible actions taken by the TSA in the past few years are not well thought out unless they are for security theater only. As I’m sure most frequent travelers can attest to, I know of multiple instances where people have accidentally made it through multiple checkpoints with weapons. In one case it was a steak knife in a computer bag that made it from the US to Canada…and back!
Originally Posted by Hedwigkin
(Post 15080534)
I'm sorry for the two post directed at you, but since you took the time in your lengthy response, I felt I should return the favor.
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