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And is not one where they have to physically take you away to a private area considered a detention or beyond the scope of an administrative search. And, again, how can these new "enhanced" measures still be considered pat downs vs frisks?
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Originally Posted by studentff
(Post 15067236)
The overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens will never be strip-searched in a federal or state prison, never be booked into their local lockup, never be arrested, and arguably, never even subjected to a stop-and-frisk Terry Stop by a LEO. (though the increasing erosion of freedoms in this country may eventually change at least the last point.) And while a lot of things go on in the military, for a lot of good reasons, I don't think aggressive patdowns are routine affairs for most soldiers/sailors/airmen.
In fact, prior to TSA, I suspect that a substantial plurality. if not a majority, of citizens never came face-to-face with an on-duty federal employee over the course of the average year. Like it or not, TSA is *the* visible face of the federal government. (The IRS on the other hand, is more of a disembodied impersonal entity to most folks. What TSA is doing is subjecting large numbers of law-abiding citizens to a non-trivial portion of the treatment normally given to criminal suspects or convicts. So, yes, I think that the only "professional" contact with that part of the body that most citizens experience is from a physician. BTW, re: the "super secret uber patdown/search with cause not performed by an officer and required to be in private:" how long before you think a full account of one of these searches gets posted here, or worse (for TSA), in the mainstream media? While individual TSOs are bound to not release SSI, that only delays the inevitable egg on TSA's face. Secrets can only be kept if the secret activity is either private or extremely rare, and TSA contacts so many passengers that even if only 1 in each million gets this treatment, it will be public knowledge before Christmas. However, in all the years TSA had other pat-downs, over reading the post of the last year, i failed to find those procedures properly defined. So i will take a wait and see attitude as to whether or not someone will post it accurately here. And if they do, I hope you don't plan on getting your jollies thinking my bubble is burst (for the reasons I mentioned just above.
Originally Posted by RichardKenner
(Post 15067202)
Just to be 100% clear, are you saying that there is only one pat-down that can be performed by TSOs and one (the "very very rare" one) that can only be done in private and not by a TSO or are you saying that there are two pat-downs that can be done by TSOs and one additional?
It sounds like you're saying the former, but I thought the situation was the latter, that there were still different pat-downs in the more routine alarm and non-alarm cases. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15068809)
To be 100% clear all I have said is that TSOs are not trained or certified in the procedure that is most invasive. If a TSO is patting you down, you are not receiving that procedure.
For the procedure that is most invasive, what group of people are trained & certified in that procedure? I just want to be clear in my understanding. |
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
(Post 15067261)
OK -- had a meeting canceled, so, here's some background materials:
Current TSA Sexual Harassment Directive. It links to a handbook which is behind the internal TSA firewall (for now...;)) TSA Office of Civil Rights and Liberties. A house of cards, I know, but, there is info about how to file a complaint. This is internal to the TSA, so, I would still copy the DHS IG. DHS IG Hotline Information Here are official DHS statistics of sexual harassment cases from Oct 1, 2004 (beginning of FY2005 through June 2010. FY 2010 is on track to be a banner year for sexual harassment cases in the TSA. I sincerely believe that the severity of interference with individual liberty and privacy that WBI and Enhanced Patdowns pose cannot be understated. Furthermore, as the primary level of security, it is more intensive and extensive than is necessary to detect threats. And finally, we cannot guarantee that it is done in good faith by the TSO actors. Therefore, I must reject this method of screening. These measures were instituted recently and I cannot reasonably elect not to fly in the near future due the unalienable right to my "pursuit of happiness"* [read: income]. I believe these methods are unconstitutional. Hence, I believe that it is my duty as a citizen to pursue every avenue possible to have these overturned. This includes using tools in the Judiciary, Executive, and Legislative Branches, as well as the 4th Branch. ------------ *"All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness." |
Originally Posted by flapping arms
(Post 15069023)
I appreciate your clarity in that reply.
For the procedure that is most invasive, what group of people are trained & certified in that procedure? I just want to be clear in my understanding. Here's the dealeo, if you alarm the WTMD for whatever reason, hip or knee replacement ie, and you are unable to divest enuff metal to clear with any further passes, you are now a recipient for a SPD. We will pat down every inch of your bod and when we get to your mid section we will sliiiide a hand up your inner thigh til we "meet resistance" Exact wording. Then, we swab our gloved hands and if they alarm, you then receive an "Alarm Resolution pat-down". This is done by a Lead or a Sup. and is always done in a private screening area. The only difference with this one is that when he/she gets to your "groin" area he/she is now going to turn his/her lil hands around and pass them over your "groin" area with the front of his/her hands 6 times. 3 across & 3 going down and then swab his/her hands again. If they alarm again, well it gets a little gray after that. |
Originally Posted by Ayn R Key
(Post 15066845)
After all, they will invoke the Nuremberg defense.
Someone attempting to sue a federal employee, alleging that an act within the scope of the employee's employment constitutes a “tort,” must sue under the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA). FTCA is the exclusive remedy for persons seeking money damages for injury to or loss of property, or for personal injury or death, caused by negligent or wrongful acts or omissions of your acts as a federal employee acting within the scope of your office or employment. That Act confers immunity on the individual employee for work-related acts. So a FTCA federal lawsuit would ultimately be against the U.S. government rather than against you personally. Generally, you cannot be sued in state court for actions arising from your federal employment. |
Originally Posted by planedude86
(Post 15070267)
From a Fark.com user:
Quote: Here's the dealeo, if you alarm the WTMD for whatever reason, hip or knee replacement ie, and you are unable to divest enuff metal to clear with any further passes, you are now a recipient for a SPD. We will pat down every inch of your bod and when we get to your mid section we will sliiiide a hand up your inner thigh til we "meet resistance" Exact wording. Then, we swab our gloved hands and if they alarm, you then receive an "Alarm Resolution pat-down". This is done by a Lead or a Sup. and is always done in a private screening area. The only difference with this one is that when he/she gets to your "groin" area he/she is now going to turn his/her lil hands around and pass them over your "groin" area with the front of his/her hands 6 times. 3 across & 3 going down and then swab his/her hands again. If they alarm again, well it gets a little gray after that. |
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
(Post 15067261)
OK -- had a meeting canceled, so, here's some background materials:
Current TSA Sexual Harassment Directive. It links to a handbook which is behind the internal TSA firewall (for now...;)) TSA Office of Civil Rights and Liberties. A house of cards, I know, but, there is info about how to file a complaint. This is internal to the TSA, so, I would still copy the DHS IG. DHS IG Hotline Information Here are official DHS statistics of sexual harassment cases from Oct 1, 2004 (beginning of FY2005 through June 2010. FY 2010 is on track to be a banner year for sexual harassment cases in the TSA. |
Originally Posted by eyecue
(Post 15070329)
No its more like this:
Someone attempting to sue a federal employee, alleging that an act within the scope of the employee's employment constitutes a “tort,” must sue under the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA). FTCA is the exclusive remedy for persons seeking money damages for injury to or loss of property, or for personal injury or death, caused by negligent or wrongful acts or omissions of your acts as a federal employee acting within the scope of your office or employment. That Act confers immunity on the individual employee for work-related acts. So a FTCA federal lawsuit would ultimately be against the U.S. government rather than against you personally. Generally, you cannot be sued in state court for actions arising from your federal employment. I think the complaint will allege that the employee acted outside of the scope of the employers directives. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15068789)
Regarding your BTW paragraph: personally i don't think the procedure should be SSI, as it is performed on individuals. To me, once that happens (as it already has happened) it is no longer SSI. But I do not determine what is SSI or not, so I have to keep it "secret", despite the fact that i tell passengers what i will do, why I'm doing it, and what it entails. Nope doesn't make sense to me.
I do wonder how long it will be before such a frisk is used as a retaliatory measure - after all, it was an LTSO that threatened a passenger in front of me with detention when the passenger exercised his First Amendment rights. |
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
(Post 15072954)
That being the case, the TSA is misclassifying information. Which is really no surprise. And I would posit that it is being done to avoid bad publicity or lawsuits. Both of which are improper reasons for classifying information. (Yes, I know that SSI/FOUO is technically not a classification, but through time the practical effect is that the information is the same as classification).
I do wonder how long it will be before such a frisk is used as a retaliatory measure - after all, it was an LTSO that threatened a passenger in front of me with detention when the passenger exercised his First Amendment rights. With an agency of over 50k employees who do exercise some amount of authority (regardless of whether or not you hold that authority in contempt), no matter the agency, it would not be possible for someone to abuse their authority in some way. Take an average police department for any major city (many post on this site how those officers are so much more professional that TSA employees), and how many complaints are filed with IA and the AG? Many. And those "highly trained" officers number MUCH less in number than TSA employees. Take the San Antonio PD, for example, much smaller that TSA, and almost each year some are charged wtb assault, bribery, theft, and recently even murder. On a daily basis, per capita, TSA employees interact with more people, and yes there are thefts, "false" additional/random screening, but as of yet nothing like assault (despite what you believe, otherwise show me the criminal complaint) nor murder. It seems TSA, per capital is at least on par with other agencies, or doing better. Just my opinion, yet i doubt anyone here will agree. All I can say is this, if you ever do receive the more invasive pat-down, follow up with management as to why it happened. With the new SOP, if it was done out of retaliation, you might then be surprised by the result you get. As I said, many of the changes are internal. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15073233)
I honestly do not know if they are misclassifying info; but i do know i don't expect anyone here to agree with anything TSA does.
With an agency of over 50k employees who do exercise some amount of authority (regardless of whether or not you hold that authority in contempt), no matter the agency, it would not be possible for someone to abuse their authority in some way. Take an average police department for any major city (many post on this site how those officers are so much more professional that TSA employees), and how many complaints are filed with IA and the AG? Many. And those "highly trained" officers number MUCH less in number than TSA employees. Take the San Antonio PD, for example, much smaller that TSA, and almost each year some are charged wtb assault, bribery, theft, and recently even murder. On a daily basis, per capita, TSA employees interact with more people, and yes there are thefts, "false" additional/random screening, but as of yet nothing like assault (despite what you believe, otherwise show me the criminal complaint) nor murder. It seems TSA, per capital is at least on par with other agencies, or doing better. Just my opinion, yet i doubt anyone here will agree. All I can say is this, if you ever do receive the more invasive pat-down, follow up with management as to why it happened. With the new SOP, if it was done out of retaliation, you might then be surprised by the result you get. As I said, many of the changes are internal. TSA doesn't meet that standard. |
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
(Post 15073264)
Taking just the San Antonio PD as an example, when an officer is charged with misconduct is that information withheld from the public or is it front page news in the local daily rag along with what ever discipline was handed out?
TSA doesn't meet that standard. |
Originally Posted by SATTSO
(Post 15073304)
hmmm you didn't really deal with what I said. Good attempt trying to divert what I said, though.
All I was doing was asking if TSA is as forthcoming about the outcome of those types of events as I believe the SAT PD is. |
Originally Posted by eyecue
(Post 15070565)
Getting the sexual harassment policy for TSA is interesting in its approach to the issue. I believe that it is only for employees though.
The sexual harassment scope of a similar nature is found in the OPM directives. If I dig hard enough, I can find the policy and a training briefing or two. The bottom line is that an act of sexual harassment performed by a screener against a member of the public is just as bad as a screener commiting an act of sexual harassment against another screener. I gotta' ask: You (personally and your screener coworkers) have had this training, right??? (both initial and annual refreshers) |
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