Denied boarding on Kuwait due to Israeli passport
Oct 2, 2003, 10:34 am
#46
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 612
It´s the responsibility of the travel agent to tell people if they need a visa or if they are allowed to enter the country/board the airline IF THE PASSENGER ASKS. But if someone buys a ticket in Canada to London how should the travel agent know that he holds an israelian passport ???
I have a freind working as a check-in agent at the airport and tells me many stories about people who have no propper documents (e.g. travelling with a german i.d. card to Sydney via Dubai). They didn´t even ask their travel agency what documents, vaccinations they need.
What KU did was fair. They rebooked the passengers on a AA flight without charging them the difference. They could have said that this is a restricted ticket (it was very cheap so it must have been) and they could not enter an aircraft to Kuwait because of their passport. So they should buy a new ticket. What compensation do they want ??? A one year silver membership in the KU ff-program ???
I have a freind working as a check-in agent at the airport and tells me many stories about people who have no propper documents (e.g. travelling with a german i.d. card to Sydney via Dubai). They didn´t even ask their travel agency what documents, vaccinations they need.
What KU did was fair. They rebooked the passengers on a AA flight without charging them the difference. They could have said that this is a restricted ticket (it was very cheap so it must have been) and they could not enter an aircraft to Kuwait because of their passport. So they should buy a new ticket. What compensation do they want ??? A one year silver membership in the KU ff-program ???
Dec 1, 2003, 9:10 am
#48
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: California
Programs: AA EXP 5 Mil, UA Global Services, BA Gold, DL Diamond, SPG Plat75, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,231
In general, whenever one travels internationally, it is best to check into document requirements. If your TA did not ask in this case, (s)he probably assumed that they were holding Canadian passport which is a mistake to assume. The airline correctly seems to have checked and caught a problem and fixed it te best way it can.
When countries are at war with each other or do not recognize one another it is best for their citizens to avoid travelling on each others flag carriers.
For example, US does not allow its passport holders to travel to CUba and Libya except under certain limited circumstances. Even if a TA books a ticket to Tripoli, the passport holder needs to be aware of this. An airline agent who denies boarding to the American citizen flying to Tripoli on way to another destination say from Europe is not anti-American but is simply following travel rules.
I do not think it is anti-semitic. I hope that Israel and its neighbors can sort things out but sadly that is not yet the case. I have travelled to Israel many times and have transited through other middle eastern states and an Israeli visa stamp was not inherently a problem. Israel can stamp visa and other info separately from the passport if you request and other middle eastern countries that have unresolved conflicts with Israel do not limit your travel to them if you do so.
We all need to learn to plan our travel better or we need world peace and elimination of travel restrictions. I would bet on the former.
When countries are at war with each other or do not recognize one another it is best for their citizens to avoid travelling on each others flag carriers.
For example, US does not allow its passport holders to travel to CUba and Libya except under certain limited circumstances. Even if a TA books a ticket to Tripoli, the passport holder needs to be aware of this. An airline agent who denies boarding to the American citizen flying to Tripoli on way to another destination say from Europe is not anti-American but is simply following travel rules.
I do not think it is anti-semitic. I hope that Israel and its neighbors can sort things out but sadly that is not yet the case. I have travelled to Israel many times and have transited through other middle eastern states and an Israeli visa stamp was not inherently a problem. Israel can stamp visa and other info separately from the passport if you request and other middle eastern countries that have unresolved conflicts with Israel do not limit your travel to them if you do so.
We all need to learn to plan our travel better or we need world peace and elimination of travel restrictions. I would bet on the former.
Dec 2, 2003, 12:01 am
#50
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,181
>>
<<
A citizen of Jordan or Egypt would not be denied boarding as there is a so called Peace Treaty and Arkia and EL AL operate flights to these countries. Possibly Moroccan citizens would be accepted as there is a cooperation agreement with Royal Air Maroc for TLV to CAS connecting traffic. Others I am sure would be denied.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by terenz:
I wonder what would happen if the (non-jewish) citizen of an Arab country tried to travel on the El Al LAX-YYZ 5th freedom leg.</font>
I wonder what would happen if the (non-jewish) citizen of an Arab country tried to travel on the El Al LAX-YYZ 5th freedom leg.</font>
A citizen of Jordan or Egypt would not be denied boarding as there is a so called Peace Treaty and Arkia and EL AL operate flights to these countries. Possibly Moroccan citizens would be accepted as there is a cooperation agreement with Royal Air Maroc for TLV to CAS connecting traffic. Others I am sure would be denied.
Dec 2, 2003, 1:22 am
#51
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In the home of the "brave"?
Programs: Whatever will get me out of Y and into C or F!
Posts: 3,748
[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bretteee:
>>
That's interesting since the flight gets listed as a DL flight too (via code-share).
[Sarcasm]
So if y'all wanna fly Delta non-stop to Toronto from LAX, y'all best not be one of them there mooslems, y'hear?
[/Sarcasm]
[This message has been edited by HeHateY (edited Dec 02, 2003).]
>>
Originally posted by terenz:
I wonder what would happen if the (non-jewish) citizen of an Arab country tried to travel on the El Al LAX-YYZ 5th freedom leg.<<
A citizen of Jordan or Egypt would not be denied boarding as there is a so called Peace Treaty and Arkia and EL AL operate flights to these countries. Possibly Moroccan citizens would be accepted as there is a cooperation agreement with Royal Air Maroc for TLV to CAS connecting traffic. Others I am sure would be denied.
I wonder what would happen if the (non-jewish) citizen of an Arab country tried to travel on the El Al LAX-YYZ 5th freedom leg.<<
A citizen of Jordan or Egypt would not be denied boarding as there is a so called Peace Treaty and Arkia and EL AL operate flights to these countries. Possibly Moroccan citizens would be accepted as there is a cooperation agreement with Royal Air Maroc for TLV to CAS connecting traffic. Others I am sure would be denied.
</font>
That's interesting since the flight gets listed as a DL flight too (via code-share).
[Sarcasm]
So if y'all wanna fly Delta non-stop to Toronto from LAX, y'all best not be one of them there mooslems, y'hear?
[/Sarcasm]
[This message has been edited by HeHateY (edited Dec 02, 2003).]
Dec 2, 2003, 2:07 pm
#52
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,181
HeHate it has nothing to do with being a "Moslem." It has to do with being a citizen of countries that are at war with each other.
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.
Dec 3, 2003, 8:25 am
#53
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Kfar Saba, Israel
Posts: 4,172
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bretteee:
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.</font>
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.</font>
I don't believe LY will automatically deny check-in for any pax with unfriendly passport. Those people might not even make it to the check-in counter ...
Dec 3, 2003, 4:46 pm
#54
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In the home of the "brave"?
Programs: Whatever will get me out of Y and into C or F!
Posts: 3,748
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bretteee:
HeHate it has nothing to do with being a "Moslem." It has to do with being a citizen of countries that are at war with each other.
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.</font>
HeHate it has nothing to do with being a "Moslem." It has to do with being a citizen of countries that are at war with each other.
You bring up an interesting point. DL in fact has the flight LAX to Toronto listed I believe as a DL flight and I believe that many people are not aware that it is an EL AL plane. Not everyone wants to fly on a Mideastern airline.</font>
I realize the world is more complicated than that.
This will get more interesting as the airline alliances grow.
IIRC, Air Koryo has a fifth freedom right(s) that some unaware U.S. citizen (aren't they all?) might fly on.
Dec 24, 2003, 4:51 am
#55
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Planet Earth, sometimes Mars
Posts: 146
Most fascinating.
In regard to an earlier question. ELAL doesn't use the US pre-clear in Toronto. You fly to LA as an int'l flight and then everyone clears US customs at LAX.
ELAL has a nasty security check before boarding. I just witnessed it at JFK and they were watching me watch them. UGH and cringe. I got out of there fast.
They had a woman staring into space(sitting) and she was totally taken back by the intensity of the check, manually x-raying everything in her bag. The look on her poor face haunted me for a long time.
I don't think many people pick up the local LAX-YYZ flight on LY and most take Air Canada or American. I would prefer the others because of the pre-clear in Toronto as customs at LAX Bradley can take a while.
No Arab or Muslim from a hostile country would ever be allowed to set foot on ELAL. They would barely make it to the horrible security check and then it would be total hell for them. ELAL openly discriminates based on race, religion, etc, something which I guess they can do in Israel but we certainly can't do here, you would get sued.
The irony is that people are trying to go to Israel to support the economy,etc., but the security checks and other similar crap are scaring people away. Seeing the check at JFK just freaked me out. Half my Synagogue is in Israel now, I opted not to go but may go later. I don't like the tourbus thing. They are trying to support Israel. When they said they were flying ELAL I said forget it.
I can get around it by flying a non-Israeli carrier to Israel, duh. But now as I am considering going to Israel I am looking for a way to get around the security crap at Ben Gurion which I hear can be nasty. My dad's secretary did it not that long ago, Christian, and she said it was very humbling and wanted to get the hell out of there. Downright harrasment. Sadly it ticks off the Christians who go who want to support the beloved country. duh She said she would never go back because of it.
A BA agent said something similar. Great trip but with the security hassles at Ben Guion, no thanks. And she works for an airline!
It actually turns me off wanting to go to what is otherwise a beautiful and sacred country...........
------------------
PA747-May it rest in Peace
In regard to an earlier question. ELAL doesn't use the US pre-clear in Toronto. You fly to LA as an int'l flight and then everyone clears US customs at LAX.
ELAL has a nasty security check before boarding. I just witnessed it at JFK and they were watching me watch them. UGH and cringe. I got out of there fast.
They had a woman staring into space(sitting) and she was totally taken back by the intensity of the check, manually x-raying everything in her bag. The look on her poor face haunted me for a long time.
I don't think many people pick up the local LAX-YYZ flight on LY and most take Air Canada or American. I would prefer the others because of the pre-clear in Toronto as customs at LAX Bradley can take a while.
No Arab or Muslim from a hostile country would ever be allowed to set foot on ELAL. They would barely make it to the horrible security check and then it would be total hell for them. ELAL openly discriminates based on race, religion, etc, something which I guess they can do in Israel but we certainly can't do here, you would get sued.
The irony is that people are trying to go to Israel to support the economy,etc., but the security checks and other similar crap are scaring people away. Seeing the check at JFK just freaked me out. Half my Synagogue is in Israel now, I opted not to go but may go later. I don't like the tourbus thing. They are trying to support Israel. When they said they were flying ELAL I said forget it.
I can get around it by flying a non-Israeli carrier to Israel, duh. But now as I am considering going to Israel I am looking for a way to get around the security crap at Ben Gurion which I hear can be nasty. My dad's secretary did it not that long ago, Christian, and she said it was very humbling and wanted to get the hell out of there. Downright harrasment. Sadly it ticks off the Christians who go who want to support the beloved country. duh She said she would never go back because of it.
A BA agent said something similar. Great trip but with the security hassles at Ben Guion, no thanks. And she works for an airline!
It actually turns me off wanting to go to what is otherwise a beautiful and sacred country...........
------------------
PA747-May it rest in Peace
Dec 24, 2003, 7:45 am
#56
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Kfar Saba, Israel
Posts: 4,172
PanAm747 - I will not defend ElAl as I did not fly with them in a few years for some of the reasons you mentioned and some others. I do not think flying ElAl supports the Israeli economy as ElAl is a monopoly company that loses a lot of taxpayer money and acts like a private profitable one.
However, the security measures you mentioned are why ElAl is considered the safest airline in the world. You don't get that by letting everyone on board without questioning. Heck, I've seen people getting hassled by TSA in any given US airport much more than what you described.
However, the security measures you mentioned are why ElAl is considered the safest airline in the world. You don't get that by letting everyone on board without questioning. Heck, I've seen people getting hassled by TSA in any given US airport much more than what you described.
Dec 24, 2003, 1:27 pm
#57
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Planet Earth, sometimes Mars
Posts: 146
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by apirchik:
PanAm747 - I will not defend ElAl as I did not fly with them in a few years for some of the reasons you mentioned and some others. I do not think flying ElAl supports the Israeli economy as ElAl is a monopoly company that loses a lot of taxpayer money and acts like a private profitable one.
However, the security measures you mentioned are why ElAl is considered the safest airline in the world. You don't get that by letting everyone on board without questioning. Heck, I've seen people getting hassled by TSA in any given US airport much more than what you described.
</font>
PanAm747 - I will not defend ElAl as I did not fly with them in a few years for some of the reasons you mentioned and some others. I do not think flying ElAl supports the Israeli economy as ElAl is a monopoly company that loses a lot of taxpayer money and acts like a private profitable one.
However, the security measures you mentioned are why ElAl is considered the safest airline in the world. You don't get that by letting everyone on board without questioning. Heck, I've seen people getting hassled by TSA in any given US airport much more than what you described.
</font>
I understand asking some questions, but let's be honest, they do go overboard.
I don't want to see people putting off a trip to Israel because of the security checks. Sadly, I think this will come to the US as checks to the US are becoming more intense. Like ELAL and Israelis, Americans pass easier but I don't want for our European friends to be put off coming to America, and that is already happening, especially when they start the finger printing checks. That is turning people off and they will go to Canada.
Anyway, I wanted to show that as Kuwait throws Israelis off their planes, and they have every right to do so, ELAL does throw Arabs/Muslims off it planes and it has every right to do so. It is always better to be safer than sorry and as long as the offending airline covers/protects the passener on another airline, I have no problem. Kuwait was right to put them on AA.
------------------
PA747-May it rest in Peace
Dec 25, 2003, 1:46 pm
#58
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,181
>>ELAL has a nasty security check before boarding. >>
Who says it's "nasty?" You?
>>I just witnessed it at JFK and they were watching me watch them. UGH and cringe. I got out of there fast. >>
Good. I am glad they were watching you. Do you like it when people watch you?
>>The look on her poor face haunted me for a long time. <<
Yes I can imagine. How dreadful that her bag was being X rayed. It really is torture.
>>I would prefer the others because of the pre-clear in Toronto as customs at LAX Bradley can take a while. >>
I can finally see eye to eye with you on that one.
>> They would barely make it to the horrible security check >>
Horrible security? Since when is protecting your passengers horrible? You have not even flown on El Al so by watching you have decided it is horrible?
>>ELAL openly discriminates based on race, religion, etc, something which I guess they can do in Israel but we certainly can't do here, you would get sued. >>
Maybe if you would "discriminate" as you call it which I don't call discrimination, 3,000 people would be alive today. It is not Mongolians who hijack planes. You question those who you suspect may commit the crime. It has to do with using your brain; not discrimination.
>>The irony is that people are trying to go to Israel to support the economy,etc., but the security checks and other similar crap are scaring people away.>>
Mmmmm really? I don't think so. On the contrary it makes me feel safer.
>>Seeing the check at JFK just freaked me out. >>
Oh deary me. Yes, how frightful.
>>Half my Synagogue is in Israel now>>
Half the synagogue is in Israel. Mmmmmmm?????
>>I opted not to go but may go later. I don't like the tourbus thing. They are trying to support Israel. When they said they were flying ELAL I said forget it. >>
Well you could have flown on Royal Jordanian via Amman instead and joined the tour group in Israel. Maybe you would have felt safer.
<< I am looking for a way to get around the security crap at Ben Gurion which I hear can be nasty. >>
Mmmmm nasty? If you want to avoid Ben Gurion "torture chamber" maybe then you can travel by bus to Amman or El Arish (Air Sinai via Cairo to Egyptair) or fly on Alia from Amman. Or better still. Fly Alia from Aqaba via Amman.
>>My dad's secretary did it not that long ago, Christian, and she said it was very humbling and wanted to get the hell out of there. Downright harrasment. >.
Seems like a bunch of b- to me.
>>Sadly it ticks off the Christians who go who want to support the beloved country.>>
Actually the Christians who go there to support Israel are even more complimentary about the security.
>> duh She said she would never go back because of it. >.
Good glad to hear it. If that's the reason then good rythms.
>>A BA agent said something similar. Great trip but with the security hassles at Ben Guion, no thanks. And she works for an airline! <<
Oh deary, deary me. Yes very painful. I can imagine.
>>It actually turns me off wanting to go to what is otherwise a beautiful and sacred country...........>>
Thank you for the compliment.
Who says it's "nasty?" You?
>>I just witnessed it at JFK and they were watching me watch them. UGH and cringe. I got out of there fast. >>
Good. I am glad they were watching you. Do you like it when people watch you?
>>The look on her poor face haunted me for a long time. <<
Yes I can imagine. How dreadful that her bag was being X rayed. It really is torture.
>>I would prefer the others because of the pre-clear in Toronto as customs at LAX Bradley can take a while. >>
I can finally see eye to eye with you on that one.
>> They would barely make it to the horrible security check >>
Horrible security? Since when is protecting your passengers horrible? You have not even flown on El Al so by watching you have decided it is horrible?
>>ELAL openly discriminates based on race, religion, etc, something which I guess they can do in Israel but we certainly can't do here, you would get sued. >>
Maybe if you would "discriminate" as you call it which I don't call discrimination, 3,000 people would be alive today. It is not Mongolians who hijack planes. You question those who you suspect may commit the crime. It has to do with using your brain; not discrimination.
>>The irony is that people are trying to go to Israel to support the economy,etc., but the security checks and other similar crap are scaring people away.>>
Mmmmm really? I don't think so. On the contrary it makes me feel safer.
>>Seeing the check at JFK just freaked me out. >>
Oh deary me. Yes, how frightful.
>>Half my Synagogue is in Israel now>>
Half the synagogue is in Israel. Mmmmmmm?????
>>I opted not to go but may go later. I don't like the tourbus thing. They are trying to support Israel. When they said they were flying ELAL I said forget it. >>
Well you could have flown on Royal Jordanian via Amman instead and joined the tour group in Israel. Maybe you would have felt safer.
<< I am looking for a way to get around the security crap at Ben Gurion which I hear can be nasty. >>
Mmmmm nasty? If you want to avoid Ben Gurion "torture chamber" maybe then you can travel by bus to Amman or El Arish (Air Sinai via Cairo to Egyptair) or fly on Alia from Amman. Or better still. Fly Alia from Aqaba via Amman.
>>My dad's secretary did it not that long ago, Christian, and she said it was very humbling and wanted to get the hell out of there. Downright harrasment. >.
Seems like a bunch of b- to me.
>>Sadly it ticks off the Christians who go who want to support the beloved country.>>
Actually the Christians who go there to support Israel are even more complimentary about the security.
>> duh She said she would never go back because of it. >.
Good glad to hear it. If that's the reason then good rythms.
>>A BA agent said something similar. Great trip but with the security hassles at Ben Guion, no thanks. And she works for an airline! <<
Oh deary, deary me. Yes very painful. I can imagine.
>>It actually turns me off wanting to go to what is otherwise a beautiful and sacred country...........>>
Thank you for the compliment.
Dec 26, 2003, 10:00 am
#60
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,181
Pan Am I don't know one "sane" person who has ever complained about El Al security. My cousin did complain about her crummy sandwich that took 3 hours to be served and left her starving.
If you hate Ben Gurion Airport so much, even though you have never even been there, I suggest you enter the country through Gaza.
If you hate Ben Gurion Airport so much, even though you have never even been there, I suggest you enter the country through Gaza.