A general comment regarding ads on this site. Do you have ANY CLUE about how much server and bandwidth costs are? This is a very active site and I suspect Randy is running it at a very decent colo (based on the lack of downtime). Add in the amount of time it probably takes to administer and it adds up to a fair amount of $$ each month. While I'm sure Randy is a travel enthusiast, like all of us, he has to pay the bills. The more traffic, the more costs, so the ads can offer to offset that. At this point is it likely he's making a profit? Sure. But why deny him that? If you want an altruistic site, you're free to go register one yourself (IMHO and no disrespect intended to anyone, simply a cluecheck).

You are aware that FT is now owned by Internet Brands? Randy is still around managing the site, but is no longer the owner.

I thought he was still part owner. In any event, similar logic holds. TANSTAAFL. If you want to have a big "free" site, someone has to foot the bill. Thus ads (or sponsorships) are necessary.

I am surprised that even with no GC's involved, gof's tone became what it did. Could it be that there is more to the tone issue than just GC's?

However, I do agree with the substance of his observation. A service like this can be supported in 3 ways:

1. Paid subscriber model
2. Non-profit fund-raising model
3. Advertising based model

OK, we all know how much we are paying to enjoy FT.

We also have a pretty good idea of how much others (foundations and individuals) might be willing to contribute towards our arguments, debates, and banter---I can really see companies fighting to get their brand associated with the "3rd strike and then a screwball" thread.

So that leaves advertising. I think Randy made the right call on that one. I am not going anywhere near the CC stuff.

Oh, there is a 4th way. Any independently wealthy, undeserved inheritance etc., type FT'ers who'd like to support us?

Sorry, it really touched a nerve. Sometimes people forget that stuff on the web isn't "free". Someone has to pay to serve the content, even if the content itself is provided free of charge (like here). Yet people get a bit huffy when they have to share their screen with ads. It's not like broadcast TV hasn't been like that for a half century or so

There wasn't one thing in my post suggesting that there is anything wrong with the ads. You helped me make my point that FT is a business that sells ads to keep going. The more hits on the site, the more viable FT becomes as a revenue producing ad machine. Nothing wrong with that.

I was suggesting that it's a questionable move to banish GC's and attribute the perceived problems in the forum to commercialism or commercial activity given the fact that FT is itself a commercial operator and the lack of evidence tieing GC's to any of the real issues at hand.

Lets face it, CC is a borderline forum when measured against the rules for most things traded or exchanged there. Most miles programs, coupons, and other instruments usually come with that standard prohibition against barter, sell or trade activity. So in all fairness it really seems like we have only one foot in the pool of rightousness with the effort to ban GC's but allow other types of questionable trading activity to continue. If we are to be that far down the straight and narrow - step up and get rid of the whole forum.

But if they close it down, I won't be able to get any karma Frankly after this, FT has become a little too much like BFT. I agree anything quid pro quo is a violation of ALL FF programs. So FT should either just shut down CC or ReVamp it into an (anything goe$) PM only bulletin board. No comments, no need for moderators etc. just H:......... PM me. simple always works best

Really?? Randy likes sushi?

as per a previous post, I havent been on ft for a few months, I missed the whole flame war and wasnt part of it. From what I could gleen out of it second hand. It seems there was a whole bunch of crap reguarding karma, lowballers, people who "live" in CC, dealers etc. Seems 20 or so of the most vocal started so much crap "all self involved" that things spiraled to a point where the mods and randy had to step in. What I dont understand is how GCs ended up the villain??? they are the cleanest way to put a value on something without using cash. But alas that took the same lowballers and karma dorks out of the mutual gifting scenario. Then they were pissed that they couldnt get something for nothing "living in CC" 24hrs a day. So thats how GCs got the villain title. The sad part is that FT has 200,000 members and somehow 20 idiots managed to penalize them for their actions. why punish everyone???

Friends,

Everyone who read this thread knows that I tried to persuade Randy against banning GC's, and to ban 3rd party comments and debates instead in CC. I also agree that FT does have a commercial layer to it.

However, I got to side with Randy on one issue of principle. Just because a place allows something in one corner doesn't obligate it to allow the same everywhere.

My symphony center is commercial enough to sell tickets as well as drinks/snacks and it prints ads in the program; yet it may reasonably not wish itself or anyone else to conduct business during the 3rd movement.

IOW, despite FT having a commercial component, Randy is justified in banning GC's from CC if he is persuaded, as he apparently is, that they are contributing to incivility in that forum.

Perhaps there will be another time-out in future and another thread for reconsidering all this. For now, let's try to make the new policy work.

On a lighter note, that is a much better ratio than we get nationally where 536 persons (house+senate+president) keep penalizing 300 million Americans all the time.

LOL

BTW if someone went to one of your symphonies with a big stinky load in their pants, would the ushers remove him or the whole audience???

Sorry for this delay in a more comprehensive explanation. Computer and site problems made useless my first post on this.

As always, many words of thanks to those members who chimed in on the matter of CC, both with posts within a few threads here in ORP and by way of PM to me personally. For some, I'm glad you were able to see what I have been hearing and seeing - that a rather large number of our members were concerned by two emerging traits of CC: some member uncivilness regarding trades and what appeared to be a growing commercial mentality of some of the members who were participating in the forum. Almost every single member identified at least one of these two traits and you can see from some of the comments and even more in those to me via PM, it was restricting some of our members interest in participating in the forum, if only to give something away.

It had reached a point where I thought it necessary to take a timeout and review the forum. I took the time to read back over hundreds if not nearly a thousand of the last posts in the forum, trying to balance the eyes of our members to what I was seeing and indeed, there were signs that we really should reconfirm our initial intent of the forum and try in some way to help keep the spirit of giving alive. Actually, here's two recent examples that show after 11 years, the community spirit is actually still smoldering!: W: Nada and W: 3 Flyertalkers to enjoy them.

So, let me review my thoughts on this:
1) Raise member barrier to access CC. This topic came up several times from comments of our members, some input from our TalkBoard and even a few of the Moderators of the forum. But I took noted when reviewing the nearly thousand posts and there was absolutely no conclusive proof that newer members were responsible for the other two issues. If anything, several of the uncivil posts and more aggressive transactions came form more experienced members. For whatever FlyerTalk is, I don't think it an automatic to quickly assume that the newer members can't be trusted. I am resolute in trying to help newer members "get" what FlyerTalk is all about and do support a minimal number of posts before having access to CC, but I just couldn't find any empirical data that I could put together that would warrant a change. I can understand why the idea makes sense, but I think the Moderators can do a great job in isolating those members who are being uncivil and perhaps too commercial without penalizing our other members regardless of post count and time on board -- subject to the current guidelines. So, with that in mind, I'm allowing the current standards for admission to remain without any increases and just as we have in the past, monitor those members who seem more aggressive with empty content in reaching some level of admittance to that forum.

2) Uncivilness. While I measure some of this to the overall impact of anonymity on the Internet, it does not provide an excuse to the members of FlyerTalk to not regard respect of other members thoughts, opinions and posts. While this type of uncivil posting is confined to a smaller number of posts and threads, without check it was surely beginning to show signs it was welcome. I repeat, uncivil posting is not considered acceptable in CC. The same tone in which you were taught to say 'please' and 'thank you' would be the guideline. Politics and religion often bring about probing questions and negative retort, but those are not the topics in which we connect members with giving and exchanging in CC.

If we need any mandate, please use the posts above in this thread and others that clearly note that our members have noticed and do not appear very happy about the idea. Our volunteer Moderators have made good progress on this issue within the CC forum and with the backing of myself and our members, the tempo of CC will be great civil dialogue. Thank you.

3) The issue of commercialism. For some time, the Moderators have worked to manage those members who seem to want to make a living in the CC forum. And again with the mandate of our members and their posts above and to me, we will continue to work toward reducing the commercial aspect of CC. For those that feel the need to make a living off the idea of giving and exchanging, well, eBay and craigslist await you. For those members who await the chance to give and exchange something when a need arises, then your fellow members await you with thanks. We want our members to feel comfortable with the members they gift things to, knowing full well that the member will have given something back to FlyerTalk, maybe in the way of advice in managing your miles and points better or exchanging an experience with an airline, hotel and ever an airport. CC can be part of that member benefit and experience. But like others, I did fully notice the impact of gift cards had in the rise of commercial activity in CC. Eliminating gift cards is a single step toward making CC feel more like the community hub it is meant to be. Is it the end all to for the concerns of our members? Probably not, but it is a step in the right direction which should not significantly alter the intent of CC, but likely to dilute the idea of commercial interests of some of the members of FlyerTalk.

To everyone, respect the roots of CC and the intent that while the world around us can change, it doesn't mean we have to be forced to give up our principles. Thanks for the many comments and support and I am confident that our Moderators will continue to work toward to goal of a friendly environment for all the members who are welcome to The Coupon Connection.

So, on with the forum and with FlyerTalk and in the words of member aktchi, "let's all do our sincere best to make them work."

Thank you.

(note, this is no where nearly as good as my missive i wrote up Friday night which was lost, but hope it will do)

Randy,

Thanks for taking the time to post your additional thoughts and comments. I hope that some 'soul-searching' was done by some members during the timeout.

mxm135

Need to dry clean that "clairvoyant's cap," too much moth ball dust left on it from the time it was left in the hallway closet! You're good to go and the Mods never came close to this being deemed "off-topic." As for me, the humor is always welcome and face it, I'm always in awe of those AA Platinum lifetime members (you) ... sincerely, a lowly Gold lifetime member (me).

Thanks for your continued support of FlyerTalk.