moderation
 

Randy,

Here is the main message that I recently sent to a moderator. I am not being critical of that moderator. I am trying to start a debate as to the process and purpose of moderation on FT.

You recently closed a thread in buzz concerning FT moderation. You said that it belonged in the Randy Petersen forum. My question then is why not move it there instead of closing it? I have done some moderating on another site, it is not an easy job. We had clear defined rules and those are the ones we used. I applaud the efforts made by Randy and all the Moderators in trying to keep some type of order on FT. I think that the results however are mixed and that you would find many different opinions as to the improvement of the site under our current overall moderation. This debate would be a good one, but only if the bulk of FTers learn about it and participate in the process. How can we get a debate like this going in say the Randy Petersen forum and yet have a broad participation by many FTers to see if a) the process needs improving, and b) what improvements could be made to the process.

I had proposed in another thread that posibly forums could determine if they needed moderators and then select the number of moderators needed through an election process. I know this is not a perfect solution and in fact we may not even need a solution as the majority of FTers may not feel that a problem even exists. I just feel that the FT of today is certainly not the open free thinking community of three years ago. The openness to share opinions and ideas brought out many strategies to earn miles and points as well as added comfort and ease to travelers. Is moderation in its current process hurting the original intent of FT? That is the debate isn't it? I only hope that we can enclude as many FTers in that process as possible.

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dallasflyer

Actually my exact words were:

Moderator practices and procedures should be addressed to Randy Petersen. My suggestion is to send Randy an email or start a new thread in the "Randy Petersen" board.

"MilesBuzz" or "Community", etc. is not the appropriate forum for this type of discussion.
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Craig6z
Buzz & United Moderator

Moderator2, the following is not specifically directed at you, but is offered as a general observation.

I would proffer that I think discussion of moderation is wholly appropriate when it concerns moderation of the forum in question. Why waste Randy's time reading this, when the moderators whose behavior is subject to critique feel uncomfortable about being criticized? It's not Randy's direct problem, it is the responsibility of the moderators to control themselves in the first place.

I think it is an easy temptation to fall victim to the instinct to stifle every small criticism (even constructive criticism) by invoking this very lame excuse. Some of the boards on this website are notorious for the fostering of a "cult of personality" by the moderator.

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-Otto

I am hoping that this doesn't become a discussion of moderators, but a discussion of moderation and it's process. Craig, if the thread in question belongs here, why not just move it here? I am in no way being critical of any individual moderator, I hope that we could better define the purpose and process of moderation in each forum as the members feel it helps and relates to them.

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dallasflyer

I agree that meta-discussion (discussion about the discussion forum) does not belong in the specific forum, and is better suited to this forum, suggestions, or TalkBoard Issues.

It's not to avoid the criticism, but to do our jobs, which is to keep our forums on topic. When these threads are left open, they suddenly become the only thing people are talking about in that forum, and we've totally failed at our job.

Hopefully this new TalkBoard and the FT Staff will be able to hammer out/ solidify/ enact (previously discussed) guidelines for all moderators to act under to provide some sort of consistency. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For instance, in the Mileage Run Forum... what is mileage run worthy?

SAN to PUS in Business... isn't "related"
BUT...
LOW Fares WAS - LA: Where are CO & NW? is???? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

What's the difference? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I guess it brings back my old thought...
Are you really looking for a "Mileage Run"? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by chexfan (edited 09-15-2003).]

Largely agree here robb. I noticed this thread recently which for about a week was not on topic at all, and I sadly think the moderator did indeed fail in his job.

We have exchanged polite emails on that, which Randy was copied into (not my choice) so these comments of mine here simply echo those concerns raised:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../003985-2.html

It went on and on for 2 pages and 63 posts that we could see. The Moderator deleted in its entirely any post he did not 'like' and made that clear more than once, so it may have really been 5 pages long.

I do not agree with posts being totally deleted. Unless of a totally obscene or really abusive nature etc. I saw one post making a very valid point that was deleted entirely in this thread. I still have a copy of that post as I retained it, anticipating its fate.

I think for transparency sake in any Forum the TEXT being objected to should be deleted, and the comment: "deleted by moderator because of ....." added in that place. It shows the original poster and time then.

Surely that might be one of the "consistency" things to be set by Talkboard as mentioned above by chexfan. To do otherwise is rather poor moderation IMO.

The thread referenced above was to me a clear example of where an Moderator should recuse himself publicly on thread due to a friendship with the thread starter.

Had that NOT been the case, the thread starter would surely have had his comments deleted by the other Moderators, as at least eight Flyertalkers called for it on the thread.

I personally would like to see moderation become more moderate in the "post moving" department and more attentive in the "personal attack/flaming" department.

I think personal attacks should always be deleted from any post. The post can remain, if it adds any value or relates to the discussion, but the attack should be deleted. For instance, IMHO, the apparently accepted FT practice of referring to folks who hold an opposing opinion as "whiners" is IMHO a personal attack and should be deleted.

I would like to see the moderators look at each "misplaced" thread and say, "Is there any way I can justify leaving this thread in place?" If there is even a slim connection to the forum, leave it alone.

Currently, there are occasions when it seems as though a thread will be moved, even if it is connected to the forum, but the moderator thinks it might be more connected to a different forum. This is disruptive to the flow.

If I were a new reader of FT and went, as one naturally would, to Miles and then to Miles Buzz and saw half of the seemingly harmless threads closed, I would run like crazy before I even got to the UA forum. I don't think we are presenting a very attractive "first impression" to folks who drop into FT for the first time these days. It is for this reason that I have on several occasions suggested moving Miles Buzz out of that "first contact" position. Personally, I think that Miles should open up right into the airline forums.

Further, IMHO, this constant thread moving stems from the fact that, apparently, the primary charge that the moderators have been given is to keep threads in the right forum, so that is where they focus their energies. Personally, I think it that the primary charge should be be keeping the boards peaceful and harmonious by halting personal attacks and flaming.

I post to another board where all posts really are screened by a moderator team prior to showing up on the board. I have no idea whether they reject many posts, or if posters are just friendly because they know that their post isn't going to happen if it is hurtful, but the end result is that it is the best place that I have ever seen on the internet. I am now spending far more time there than on FT and making lots of real-life friends.

I am not proposing that FT screen all posts, but observing that friendly (yes, like FT was in the olden days) is a lot more inviting than the bickering and baiting that sometimes occurs these days on FT.

OK off to Barrow. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Same stuff, OVER and OVER again.

The forums are cluttered enough. We should be supporting the moderators and urging them to move MORE threads.

Also, If what people are doing is whining, then calling them whiners is not an attack. It is an accurate assesment.

I still urge anyone who dislikes the moderation on FT to try This Joke of a Site and see what really BAD moderation is all about.

Hear, hear! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif



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Vasant

personal attacks/foul language
Will there is probably a broad support for strong moderation of unkind posts with personal attacks, in many 'cases' I would prefer, if moderators would (first) just delete the attacking parts ( (and not close the entire topic - may be also 'warn' the poster if such attacks happen often, and finally 'ban' the poster or propose such a ban to Randy).

moving posts
While it would probably please the original poster not to see his posts be moved to a more appropriate place = forum, I also believe that it serves the community more in the long-run if posts can be easily found in the fora they belong to (and where I would search fro them). Placing 'misposted' threads into the 'correct' forum, also helps/ others not doing the same 'mistake' again and again (not copying 'others'). Here I value the advantages for the community higher than the individual pride (that may be hurt).

I really doubt, that many valuable oldies have left FlyerTalk (or became passiv) because of the moderator policy introduced 2 years ago (I know of many other valid individual other reasons why some decided to do so).

And also: it seems that Randy's policy (and 'strategie' for the future of FlyerTalk) really seems to 'let us' focuse on discussions about miles & points (plus our special OMNI-playground) in the right place (= Fora) - in my judgement, even if some (or even if a majority of), FlyerTalkers wouldn't agree on this - that is so far the current policy for the moderators.

Having learned that probably a majority of FlyerTalkers is not posting but only lurking: all those silent FlyerTalkers (a majority), are probably best served, if things are found were they look for in the first place. This silent majority (with no voice here)should not be forgotten. This is not only about the posters, it is also about the readers/lurkers.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 09-18-2003).]

Rudi, I respectfully disagree with you about the responsibility towards those who only lurk and don't post at all. In such an internet community, I think there's a responsibility on the part of readers to offer their information, to "give something back". If a member doesn't make positive contributions, then there is no need to give them a second thought.

Of course, to take this but one step further, the same could be said about some posters who never share any useful information but simply amuse themselves with only posting nonsense. But that's a completely different discussion from this one.

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Continental Airlines and bankruptcy: The third time will be the charm!

Rudi, thank you. That is the exactly the way that many of us try to proceed.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> ..moved to a more appropriate place = forum, I also believe that it serves the community more in the long-run if posts can be easily found in the fora they belong to ...

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Well and succinctly put!

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I really doubt, that many valuable oldies have left FlyerTalk (or became passiv) because of the moderator policy...

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Agree. Heratened to hear that you think so too.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">And also: it seems that Randy's policy (and 'strategie' for the future of FlyerTalk) really seems to 'let us' focuse on discussions about miles & points (plus our special OMNI-playground) in the right place (= Fora) - in my judgement, even if some (or even if a majority of), FlyerTalkers wouldn't agree on this - that is so far the current policy for the moderators....

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Exactly.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> ...are probably best served, if things are found were they look for in the first place....

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Once again, pithily and well-put.

Thank you.

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to post. And I also don't believe there is any responsibility for them to "give something back." No quid pro quo, IMHO.

I believe the vast majority of FlyerTalkers are lurker-members and not registered-members. They come here for info, search and find it. Some just surf around and stumble into tips and fun stuff. Maybe they just don't have anything to add? Maybe they are just shy?

I don't post info for just the registered membership. And I don't expect any "payback" in the form of a "Thanks" or return info from anyone that reads my stuff. It's just sorta Community Service...info tacked to a bulletin board. Of course, FlyerTalk has personally been very helpful to me getting information as well.

I have however, received far more personal emails from lurker-members over the years, than from registered members. And I long ago considered anyone that visited FlyerTalk even just once, to be a "member." Registered or not.

I've posted this before, but on one flight from London a gentleman took the seat next to me. I noticed he had a FlyerTalk luggage tag. I introduced myself and asked his handle. He didn't have one! Been a Lurker for years and never made a post! He knew the names of every "regular" on the United forum and some of the others as well. He is definitely a FlyerTalker. He is also (I found out later) a Superior Court Judge in Los Angeles.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 09-18-2003).]

Im really worried about you... you still havent gotten over your 'issues' with that other site, eh...? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Lighten up, dont be so bitter... its bad for your health... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif