moderation
 

Randy,

Here is the main message that I recently sent to a moderator. I am not being critical of that moderator. I am trying to start a debate as to the process and purpose of moderation on FT.

You recently closed a thread in buzz concerning FT moderation. You said that it belonged in the Randy Petersen forum. My question then is why not move it there instead of closing it? I have done some moderating on another site, it is not an easy job. We had clear defined rules and those are the ones we used. I applaud the efforts made by Randy and all the Moderators in trying to keep some type of order on FT. I think that the results however are mixed and that you would find many different opinions as to the improvement of the site under our current overall moderation. This debate would be a good one, but only if the bulk of FTers learn about it and participate in the process. How can we get a debate like this going in say the Randy Petersen forum and yet have a broad participation by many FTers to see if a) the process needs improving, and b) what improvements could be made to the process.

I had proposed in another thread that posibly forums could determine if they needed moderators and then select the number of moderators needed through an election process. I know this is not a perfect solution and in fact we may not even need a solution as the majority of FTers may not feel that a problem even exists. I just feel that the FT of today is certainly not the open free thinking community of three years ago. The openness to share opinions and ideas brought out many strategies to earn miles and points as well as added comfort and ease to travelers. Is moderation in its current process hurting the original intent of FT? That is the debate isn't it? I only hope that we can enclude as many FTers in that process as possible.

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dallasflyer

Actually my exact words were:

Moderator practices and procedures should be addressed to Randy Petersen. My suggestion is to send Randy an email or start a new thread in the "Randy Petersen" board.

"MilesBuzz" or "Community", etc. is not the appropriate forum for this type of discussion.
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Craig6z
Buzz & United Moderator

Moderator2, the following is not specifically directed at you, but is offered as a general observation.

I would proffer that I think discussion of moderation is wholly appropriate when it concerns moderation of the forum in question. Why waste Randy's time reading this, when the moderators whose behavior is subject to critique feel uncomfortable about being criticized? It's not Randy's direct problem, it is the responsibility of the moderators to control themselves in the first place.

I think it is an easy temptation to fall victim to the instinct to stifle every small criticism (even constructive criticism) by invoking this very lame excuse. Some of the boards on this website are notorious for the fostering of a "cult of personality" by the moderator.

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-Otto

I am hoping that this doesn't become a discussion of moderators, but a discussion of moderation and it's process. Craig, if the thread in question belongs here, why not just move it here? I am in no way being critical of any individual moderator, I hope that we could better define the purpose and process of moderation in each forum as the members feel it helps and relates to them.

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dallasflyer

I agree that meta-discussion (discussion about the discussion forum) does not belong in the specific forum, and is better suited to this forum, suggestions, or TalkBoard Issues.

It's not to avoid the criticism, but to do our jobs, which is to keep our forums on topic. When these threads are left open, they suddenly become the only thing people are talking about in that forum, and we've totally failed at our job.

Hopefully this new TalkBoard and the FT Staff will be able to hammer out/ solidify/ enact (previously discussed) guidelines for all moderators to act under to provide some sort of consistency. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For instance, in the Mileage Run Forum... what is mileage run worthy?

SAN to PUS in Business... isn't "related"
BUT...
LOW Fares WAS - LA: Where are CO & NW? is???? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

What's the difference? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I guess it brings back my old thought...
Are you really looking for a "Mileage Run"? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by chexfan (edited 09-15-2003).]

Largely agree here robb. I noticed this thread recently which for about a week was not on topic at all, and I sadly think the moderator did indeed fail in his job.

We have exchanged polite emails on that, which Randy was copied into (not my choice) so these comments of mine here simply echo those concerns raised:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../003985-2.html

It went on and on for 2 pages and 63 posts that we could see. The Moderator deleted in its entirely any post he did not 'like' and made that clear more than once, so it may have really been 5 pages long.

I do not agree with posts being totally deleted. Unless of a totally obscene or really abusive nature etc. I saw one post making a very valid point that was deleted entirely in this thread. I still have a copy of that post as I retained it, anticipating its fate.

I think for transparency sake in any Forum the TEXT being objected to should be deleted, and the comment: "deleted by moderator because of ....." added in that place. It shows the original poster and time then.

Surely that might be one of the "consistency" things to be set by Talkboard as mentioned above by chexfan. To do otherwise is rather poor moderation IMO.

The thread referenced above was to me a clear example of where an Moderator should recuse himself publicly on thread due to a friendship with the thread starter.

Had that NOT been the case, the thread starter would surely have had his comments deleted by the other Moderators, as at least eight Flyertalkers called for it on the thread.

I personally would like to see moderation become more moderate in the "post moving" department and more attentive in the "personal attack/flaming" department.

I think personal attacks should always be deleted from any post. The post can remain, if it adds any value or relates to the discussion, but the attack should be deleted. For instance, IMHO, the apparently accepted FT practice of referring to folks who hold an opposing opinion as "whiners" is IMHO a personal attack and should be deleted.

I would like to see the moderators look at each "misplaced" thread and say, "Is there any way I can justify leaving this thread in place?" If there is even a slim connection to the forum, leave it alone.

Currently, there are occasions when it seems as though a thread will be moved, even if it is connected to the forum, but the moderator thinks it might be more connected to a different forum. This is disruptive to the flow.

If I were a new reader of FT and went, as one naturally would, to Miles and then to Miles Buzz and saw half of the seemingly harmless threads closed, I would run like crazy before I even got to the UA forum. I don't think we are presenting a very attractive "first impression" to folks who drop into FT for the first time these days. It is for this reason that I have on several occasions suggested moving Miles Buzz out of that "first contact" position. Personally, I think that Miles should open up right into the airline forums.

Further, IMHO, this constant thread moving stems from the fact that, apparently, the primary charge that the moderators have been given is to keep threads in the right forum, so that is where they focus their energies. Personally, I think it that the primary charge should be be keeping the boards peaceful and harmonious by halting personal attacks and flaming.

I post to another board where all posts really are screened by a moderator team prior to showing up on the board. I have no idea whether they reject many posts, or if posters are just friendly because they know that their post isn't going to happen if it is hurtful, but the end result is that it is the best place that I have ever seen on the internet. I am now spending far more time there than on FT and making lots of real-life friends.

I am not proposing that FT screen all posts, but observing that friendly (yes, like FT was in the olden days) is a lot more inviting than the bickering and baiting that sometimes occurs these days on FT.

OK off to Barrow. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Same stuff, OVER and OVER again.

The forums are cluttered enough. We should be supporting the moderators and urging them to move MORE threads.

Also, If what people are doing is whining, then calling them whiners is not an attack. It is an accurate assesment.

I still urge anyone who dislikes the moderation on FT to try This Joke of a Site and see what really BAD moderation is all about.

Hear, hear! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif



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Vasant

personal attacks/foul language
Will there is probably a broad support for strong moderation of unkind posts with personal attacks, in many 'cases' I would prefer, if moderators would (first) just delete the attacking parts ( (and not close the entire topic - may be also 'warn' the poster if such attacks happen often, and finally 'ban' the poster or propose such a ban to Randy).

moving posts
While it would probably please the original poster not to see his posts be moved to a more appropriate place = forum, I also believe that it serves the community more in the long-run if posts can be easily found in the fora they belong to (and where I would search fro them). Placing 'misposted' threads into the 'correct' forum, also helps/ others not doing the same 'mistake' again and again (not copying 'others'). Here I value the advantages for the community higher than the individual pride (that may be hurt).

I really doubt, that many valuable oldies have left FlyerTalk (or became passiv) because of the moderator policy introduced 2 years ago (I know of many other valid individual other reasons why some decided to do so).

And also: it seems that Randy's policy (and 'strategie' for the future of FlyerTalk) really seems to 'let us' focuse on discussions about miles & points (plus our special OMNI-playground) in the right place (= Fora) - in my judgement, even if some (or even if a majority of), FlyerTalkers wouldn't agree on this - that is so far the current policy for the moderators.

Having learned that probably a majority of FlyerTalkers is not posting but only lurking: all those silent FlyerTalkers (a majority), are probably best served, if things are found were they look for in the first place. This silent majority (with no voice here)should not be forgotten. This is not only about the posters, it is also about the readers/lurkers.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 09-18-2003).]

Rudi, I respectfully disagree with you about the responsibility towards those who only lurk and don't post at all. In such an internet community, I think there's a responsibility on the part of readers to offer their information, to "give something back". If a member doesn't make positive contributions, then there is no need to give them a second thought.

Of course, to take this but one step further, the same could be said about some posters who never share any useful information but simply amuse themselves with only posting nonsense. But that's a completely different discussion from this one.

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Continental Airlines and bankruptcy: The third time will be the charm!

Rudi, thank you. That is the exactly the way that many of us try to proceed.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> ..moved to a more appropriate place = forum, I also believe that it serves the community more in the long-run if posts can be easily found in the fora they belong to ...

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Well and succinctly put!

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I really doubt, that many valuable oldies have left FlyerTalk (or became passiv) because of the moderator policy...

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Agree. Heratened to hear that you think so too.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">And also: it seems that Randy's policy (and 'strategie' for the future of FlyerTalk) really seems to 'let us' focuse on discussions about miles & points (plus our special OMNI-playground) in the right place (= Fora) - in my judgement, even if some (or even if a majority of), FlyerTalkers wouldn't agree on this - that is so far the current policy for the moderators....

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Exactly.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> ...are probably best served, if things are found were they look for in the first place....

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Once again, pithily and well-put.

Thank you.

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to post. And I also don't believe there is any responsibility for them to "give something back." No quid pro quo, IMHO.

I believe the vast majority of FlyerTalkers are lurker-members and not registered-members. They come here for info, search and find it. Some just surf around and stumble into tips and fun stuff. Maybe they just don't have anything to add? Maybe they are just shy?

I don't post info for just the registered membership. And I don't expect any "payback" in the form of a "Thanks" or return info from anyone that reads my stuff. It's just sorta Community Service...info tacked to a bulletin board. Of course, FlyerTalk has personally been very helpful to me getting information as well.

I have however, received far more personal emails from lurker-members over the years, than from registered members. And I long ago considered anyone that visited FlyerTalk even just once, to be a "member." Registered or not.

I've posted this before, but on one flight from London a gentleman took the seat next to me. I noticed he had a FlyerTalk luggage tag. I introduced myself and asked his handle. He didn't have one! Been a Lurker for years and never made a post! He knew the names of every "regular" on the United forum and some of the others as well. He is definitely a FlyerTalker. He is also (I found out later) a Superior Court Judge in Los Angeles.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 09-18-2003).]

Im really worried about you... you still havent gotten over your 'issues' with that other site, eh...? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Lighten up, dont be so bitter... its bad for your health... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I agree with PremEx regarding that no one is obligated to post here. I myself was a lurker for many months before I ever registered & posted. I have had more chance encounters with FT lurkers than I would've imagined. At least one came up to me in the Admiral's Club when he saw I was on FT chat. Personally, I've derived alot of great information from FT and I tend to only contribute when I feel I have something to say (hence my relatively low post count for my registration date). As for the moderation of the board, I think the moderators are doing a great job on a truly thankless task, IMHO. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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Regards,
- Anna

Well CameraGuy has linked to that site about 500 times, so he certainly must have an 'issue' with it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And then accuses others of repeating things "OVER and OVER" which is pretty darn funny. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

I am waiting to see him work in his 501st 'original' post now of:

®© "Pot- kettle - black" ®© C.G. 2001/2002/2003/2004(?)

We all know CameraGuy got banned from "the other place" for his antics. Fortunately for him and others Randy is much more forgiving. But what possible relevance does his banning have to do with moderation, other than keep picking at a scab which apparently hasn't healed after more than a year?

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Continental Airlines and bankruptcy: The third time will be the charm!

That is not true.

FewMiles..

Yeah right.... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

"Bitter" must be the word of the month from the Great Northwest.

As long as some members CONTINUALLY whine about the moderation, I will continue to point them in another direction.

OttoGraham is incorrect as usual, but when has he/she ever let the facts get in the way of an attack.

Pot, Kettle, Black has a "Sister" Saying: "People" in glass houses should not throw stones.

I see that the UA Stalking Patrol has found a new target. One has to wonder why this behaviour is allowed.

THE MODERATION STYLE OF MOVING THREADS TO THE PROPER FORUM IS WHAT MAKES FT USEFUL. TO WEAKEN THAT DIRECTIVE WOULD BE FOOLISH AND WOULD MAKE FT NO BETTER THAN OTHER TRAVEL RELATED BB'S.

I have no idea of the history of all of this and I sure do not want to get into it, but aren't you contradicting yourself in your own post? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

How So?

You have taken portions of two seperate statements and linked them together. Out of context I might add.

Rudi writes:

I agree this is true for regulars and there is clear evidence that regular posters are making a real effort to think about the proper forum before they post.

Miles Buzz, however, month after month, year after year continues to be filled with closed posts, sometimes almost as many closed as open. Why?

There are those that claim that it is because those who post there are just plain lazy, but I would suggest that it happens because Miles Buzz is at the top of FT Miles and that is the place where new folks naturally go. They have no idea where to post so they post where they are.

Is it possible for the Talk Board and/or the Talk Team to discuss the feasibility of rearranging the forums on the boards? As I have suggested earlier, I think it would be worth a try to put the airline and hotel forums first. If Randy's focus is to guide FT to focus more on miles and points, that would certainly be appropriate.

My concern arises from comments I have received from some of the hundreds of people I have referred to FT over the years. Several have indicated that they find FT very confusing and were turned off by seeing such a high percentage of closed posts in the only forum (Miles Buzz) that they visited. Their impression was that all FT forums where that disjointed.

Repositioning the forums might dramatically reduce the amount of post moving.

No .... you continually whine back about another BB.

Seems like the scores are even to me?

It is surely just like saying the best solution for a burning building is to go ignite all the adjoining ones. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

That is NOT a great or very bright solution.

1000 times more Flyertalkers belong to and use www.BiddingForTravel.com than the site you keep on whining about hundreds of times here.

If you want to experience possibly THE most moderated BB on the web, go visit there. And guess what? That board saves me $1000s each year, and I and all others know in advance the owner has those rather Draconian rules and accept them entirely.

What either board has to do with FT Moderation is ........ ZERO. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

And notice, therefore, that the logic of your argument means that whatever is at the top will be where folks post because that's "where they are."

Actually, cblaisd, I doubt if it would work that way if the listing started out with the airlines alphabetically. Instinctively, new posters would get the picture and just scroll down the list to their particular airline and read and post there.

It would just be a more intuitive, user friendly arrangement. Those of us who have been around from the start, understand the evolution that led to the current positioning of forums, but it is very confusing for newbies.

Nonetheless that is the logic of your argument.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> if the listing started out with the airlines alphabetically. Instinctively, new posters would get the picture and just scroll down the list to their particular airline and read and post there.

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Which is exactly what they can do now. Unless FT is the very first website they've ever been on and the first time they've ever encountered a scroll-bar on the right side of the screen.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> It would just be a more intuitive, user friendly arrangement. Those of us who have been around from the start, understand the evolution that led to the current positioning of forums, but it is very confusing for newbies.

---

While, sadly, I will never be one of those who were around in those halycon early days, I did not find it too hard to understand when I was a newbie.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

So, using your logic, it is OK for your drinking buddy to whine about the moderation, but it is not OK for me to respond that they should look elsewhere.

3500 FT'er use that site?

Also, if they can accept the rules for that forum, why is it so hard for the SAME people to accept the rules for this one?


When one of the people who is constantly critisizing the moderation is a founder/anonymous moderator on a board that failed miserably at moderation, it has everything to do with FT. In MY opinion, they lost their right to critisize Randy when they left to create "Utopia".

while I don't (in many respects) share (most) of the arguments against moderation in the Miles Buzz (and I am also all for letting this Forum where it is now, at the top), I don't look at any of the recent points raised by those who argue here for a possible change as being critcs of Randy.

The personal attacks and constant 'recommendations' to leave this board and to not contribute here anymore, are, in my opinion, much more directed against the policy that Randy constantly follows and recommends here with his own posts and what also shows in his faq as a guideline how to 'behave' here.

I was a 'co-founder' of that 'other' board too (a board that Randy was constantly informed about by some of us personally), and I did follow the being questioned moderation policy at the now again discussed critical time closely. I thought than (and still do so now) that moderation was done there to best of the moderators knowledge and as fair as possible (that's my personal judgement and insider-knowledge from then). One moderator, that in a post above now is still criticised, wasn't even enabled to moderate the main forum that became the most critic one at that time. But if you go on to not believe me, what can I do?

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 09-19-2003).]

Rudi,

Other than recommend "Greener Pastures", what would you say to someone who is so obviously unhappy with FT?

As for your defense of the moderation on "TOBB", the moderator(s) who engaged in a vendetta against me hid behind cowardly anonymous handles. I still to this day do not know for certain who they really are.

As a founder of that board, you know full well that it was resurected to "Show Randy how moderation should be performed". So, when any founder of that board pops up here critisizing Randy's Moderator Team, you can be darn sure that I will pipe up. That board is a failure. In MY opinion, the failure of that board is directly tied to the ridiculous moderation.

If you see my defense of the moderation here as an attack, so be it. But, I will not sit idly bye and watch the same old arguments waged again and again.

Like a broken record...

Role model boards to consider
An explanation might be in order
Why did you post on Milesbuzz?
Are there rules behind locking threads?
<A HREF="http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ftpasttalk_forum/Forum132/HTML/000047.html" TARGET=_blank>Is there something wrong with that www.flyertalk.com place?</A>
Moderator duties and priorities
Trigger happy moderators
This place of double standards...
Thoughts of an old-timer.....
Topic: Censorship on Flyertalk
Topic: The closing of community threads
Topic: Closing of Thread "Too many anal individuals here... "

CameraGuy, I am not unhappy with FT. In fact I really enjoy it and think that it is one of the best sites on the internet. I do think that we are over moderated today just as we were under moderated three years ago. If a large group were to agree with me, then maybe we can effect a change in the process of moderating that would ease some of the thread closure and create more courtious debate. I am not arguing that personal attacts or grossly inflamitory statement shouldn't be moderated. I am feeling that we now preemptively moderate so that nothing bad gets started. I think that when we do it that way alot of good posts don't get started. The statement that I don't think this is going anywhere is becoming more and more common. If it is not going anywhere then why close it? It will just go away. If you have a true TOS violation then act on that, not on the possibility of problems. I again am not critisizing anyone, I am just trying to find out if more members feel that we are over moderated and if we could then change our process to allow more free discourse as long as it is civil. FT should be and for me is a source of entertainment as well as a source for knowledge.

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dallasflyer

dallasflyer,

You are not the person I am referring to. If you posted the same argument at least 10 times, then I would consider you unhappy.

I disagree that we are overmoderated. We are still undermoderated. If I want to see that CO has issued a press release touting the new service between EWR and ORD, I would be perfectly happy reading about it in theNEWS Forum. I do NOT want to read about it in the CO Forum.

Also, Last time I checked, the description for MilesBuzz was not one of these:

A forum for newbies or lazy members to post their questions that if they had done a little research would have been posted in the proper forum

or

A forum for members to steal the credit for ideas that have been posted in other forums by other members

As far as I am concerned MilesBuzz should net even exist. Anything posted there can easily be covered in the individual forums.

I say, eliminate MilesBuzz and eliminate problems.

Like a broken record...

in my opinion more like a proof of consistency in opinion and arguments.

CameraGuy, you are a hard guy to agree with. Moving off topic threads and the misuse of Milesbuzz is and are real problems. But the closing of threads which talk about our situations on airline forums that are closed just cuz the modeator feels we have discussed it enough does not make sense to me. If we have discussed it enough then everyone would stop posting, wouldn't they. What I believe the moderators are doing is trying to prevent flaming, which as a by product prevents posting. The cure is worse than the ailment in my opinion. Moving posts to there proper place, within reason, and closing total TOS violations are missions that I believe our moderators should undertake. Thanks everyone for the debate and your opinions. Hopefully more people will post and we can see where FTers all feel about this issue.

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dallasflyer

Posting from Barrow, where it is not too very cold today. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Personally, the moderation, or lack there of does not affect me at all. I know exactly where all the information on FT that interests me is located and I am a master at ignoring, silly, meaningless, even annoying and outright disruptive behavior on the internet.

The post moving can be a little annoying when one is following a thread and then, POOF, it is gone. That, however, is not a big deal for me as I don't follow many threads that actually get moved.

My biggest concern is the effect that all of those closed threads in Miles Buzz has on the newbies who get Miles Buzz as their first impression of FT.

I appreciate your question regarding newbies (which I also addressed in my last post, but you didn't respond to), but I was also had the impression that you did find the situation somewhat confusing yourself:

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/001877.html

But back to the hope you initially expressed on this thread:

Apparently Randy thinks otherwise, as he has stated more than once. For example, I would think this is pretty clear:

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/001877.html

All the moderators that I am acquainted with see both as their commission from Randy, and do try to act accordingly -- since, again, he has been very, very clear about misplaced posts and posting in the appropriate place.

Punki mentions Point #1: And Point #2: I also think the moderators are likely doing both. I just assume it's a natural dynamic of the 2 very different tasks that #1 is highly visible, while #2 is almost totally invisible.

The way it should be, IMHO.

Doesn't mean it's not happening just because we don't see the blow by blow here in public! Thank God!