Randy, first, let me say that I am very grateful for your forums. Recently, I have noticed an increase in the number of personal attacks by FT's on other FT's. I am asking you as well as the moderators to be more active in policing this sort of thing. I do not believe this behavior furthurs the cause and objectives of Flyertalk.

I have to agree. Sadly, though, I'm not sure that will ever happen.

The OMNI registration, for example, was designed to help curb trollers and be a way to allow the moderators to deal with TOS violations in a proactive manner. Despite this, though, I don't think there have been more than a handful of people whose OMNI priveleges have been revoked - and the TOS violations occur as much as ever.

I'm sick and f*cking tired of reading partisan potshots from both sides - whether it be about Bush supporters either being "sheep" or "drinking Fox News Kool Aid," or just generally being referred to as idiotic (arguments that I am personally offended by, on several levels) or similar statements being dished from the other side. The statements themselves are galling enough - OMNI is full of people who feel that their idea of debate is spewing hate and personal attacks in order to further their own agenda.

What saddens me more, however, is that people sit back and let it happen. I could sit and cry foul about being personally offended by many statements in OMNI - yet I'm not sure that anyone would really give a ****. And I'm certain that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

(And please, don't tell me that I shouldn't read it if it offends me. I read it as seldom as possible, and refuse to post - even when someone posts blatantly inaccurate information - but just because I don't read it, doesn't mean that the TOS violations and personal attacks go away.)

I stand by what I've been writing for the past six months. The only way to stop the personal attacks and the TOS violations - at least on OMNI - is to shut it down altogether. The current system has failed miserably - and I fear that if it continues, it will drive people away who don't wish to be a part of a system that tolerates such abuse.

Mike


[This message has been edited by nako (edited Jan 13, 2004).]

I am aware of 2 x FT'ers in particular who have received unpublicised one month time-outs at different times from the OMNI moderators.

Neither person posts anywhere on FT now AFAIK, as I understand they feel this action was un-warranted. I have seen the specific thread objected to in the most recent solo suspension case and on an 'OMNI-aggro-scale-ometer' I have personally scored it as minus 5 out of 10. No heated abuse, no inappropriate terms or words or nasty name calling, and all VERY civilised discourse I thought by OMNI standards. Not that my opinion matters one jot, but that is my score. Others are free to rate it themselves:

www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum44/HTML/018424.html

These persons IMHO contributed a lot of posts and input and ideas to FT elsewhere, in many, many Forums, so I am quietly wondering in my mind how FLYERTALK benefited in any way from the knock-on from these unilateral actions?

And whether there are many others also on this list?

As my Grandma always said - most dinner table discussions of politics and religion ends up in heated arguments, and thus should be avoided. And on a BB it is no different. Possibly worse.

And all the month time-outs in the world will not change that dynamic. IMHO.

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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Jan 13, 2004).]

Originally posted by ozstamps:
At the Naval Academy and as a naval officer, it was strictly enjoined on us that the following subjects were unsuitable for discussion in the wardroom (officers' dining room): sex, politics, and religion.

Of course, we had to get along with each other on a frequent basis at all hours of the day or night in confined conditions, often under stress and with lack of sleep.

Hey, that sounds like Flyer Talk! But we know better about civility these days, don't we? We don't? Well, don't expect our host to be able to hold back the tide. I'm sure he'd prefer a focus solely on miles and points. These other subjects were done at our request.

Speaking of personal attacks (perhaps as a recipient), does anyone know what thread or threads triggered the putative expulsion of IndustrialPatent?

See I'm Opening this thread...Change of attitude.....Guess when IP might come back?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum35/HTML/008317.html

By the way, Randy, I appreciate your policy of not publicly explaining enforcement actions, except in eggregious circumstances.

Letting the recipient of the discipline publicise it through a third party (if desired) seems not only more humane, but also lessens the chance of a frivolous defamation action against Flyer Talk. I'm sure you're either getting good legal advice or have a lot of common sense.

One month time-outs given by Omni moderators?

I thought only Randy issued these kinds of time-outs; moderators at Omni are limited to warnings, editing privileges and eventually imposing a week-long suspension of posting privileges to Omni only ... at least that was my understanding of the procedures ... ?

Despite the above misleading post, the "unpublicised one month time-outs" were most likely for OMNI ONLY.

Also, most likely, they were the result of MANY TOS violations brought to a head.

SPN Lifer,

It is my understanding that IP left on his/her own accord.

I could easily say this appears to be an attack on the the people who DO NOT support Bush? By describing at length what galls your side and scarcely mentioning the other. ( all the while trying to give the "fair and balanced" appearance)

You are not claiming your own posts are mostly non-partisan are you?

Personally I really don care whether ONMI exists or not I browse it ocasionally but I didnt bother to apply for posting privilages.. keeps me out (partially anyway) of flame wars.

As I see it almost impossible to prevent members from expressing their opinions on many/most subjects and its going to grate on some others nerves.. that life.
mike




[This message has been edited by MIKESILV (edited Jan 13, 2004).]

Another day, another moderator meta discussion.

I disagree that there are rampant TOS violations on OMNI and FT in general. But then again, I actively lurk other IBBs (like slashdot) and Usenet, and I think our "community" is very tame by those standards. But that is just my opinion.

The thing to keep in mind is that those who choose to participate in the Religion and Political threads on OMNI have very thick skins. The moderators know that and typically get involved only when there is an egregious foul. To paint all of OMNI with this same bush is unfair. There are hundreds of active threads that have no political or religious content, no TOS violations.

As far as the OMNI timeouts are concerned, the �rules� for OMNI have been published here: http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/016051.html The OMNI moderators only have the �power� to remove posting provides from OMNI. Only Randy can ban someone from all of FT.

To date the OMNI moderators have handed out �many� warnings, 3-4 7-day suspensions, and only 2 30-day suspensions. In every case, suspensions are not handed out unless all of the OMNI moderators reached consensus on the timeout. Since the OMNI moderators come from different backgrounds and posting styles, I feel that this is a pretty good system. I also think that the timeouts are only used as an absolute last resort.

Do the recipients of the timeouts feel they were deserved? Some have and some have not. But if you choose to ignore moderator warnings, you have to face the consequences.


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Sean
aka: skofarrell
Moderator, OMNI & American Express

One more thing to add:

"OMNI posting privileges are available via [email protected] A discussion of all things NOT related to miles, points, travel, dining or airports. OMNI is a vibrant dialog of perspectives on world events, politics, religion and more. It is more importantly fascinating reading for anyone and provides quite a bit of humor and entertainment. We have chosen not to stifle opinions and as such this forum is moderated only with member assistance in mind. We do however, ask that anyone posting to this forum have the utmost regard for other opinions and feelings. Members who display online behavior outside of the TOS of FlyerTalk may be subject to timeouts or dismissal - regardless of their valuable posts elsewhere on FlyerTalk. This is an important asset of FlyerTalk, treat it that way. "

Bolding above is mine.

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Sean
aka: skofarrell
Moderator, OMNI & American Express

It's very unlike me to get involved in this type of discussion but I feel it's important to voice my support of the OMNI moderators and say that I completely agree with skofarrel's comments above.

I'm a daily FT (and OMNI) participant. Although I generally limit my active participation to the less controversial topics, I often read the political/religious/etc. threads. I honestly don't see the rampant attacks described earlier in this thread. And if anyone more actively involved in those threads feels he/she is being personally attacked, I'm confident the most effective solution is an email to the moderators.

Thank you, skofarrell!

FWIW.... ACEFLYER's comments (that'd be the person who started this thread) mentioned nothing about OMNI at all, but rather personal attacks in unspecified places.

Just thought I'd point that out before this became a pro-OMNI or anti-OMNI thread.

oz, how about some more detail?

Please note in my original post where I said that this sort of attack was not unique to one side. I was merely giving examples of quotes that I found to be offensive (as they were directed at me, as a supporter of the President) - the fact that I did not give examples of the other side doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, or that I'm not being "fair and balanced." In fact, I think se94583 saying "spin the pinhead" in this thread would qualify, or referring to them as the "tin-foil hat club" in this thread.

What it ultimately meant is that it was late, I was tired and pissed off at that point, and I didn't feel like working myself up any further to find more examples other than what I saw. Now that I've had several hours of sleep, though, I feel better, thank you.

I debated in both high school and college. Bad rhetoric, no matter where it comes from, is galling to me. And I'm saddened to see, that as this thread progresses, that my suspicions re: OMNI timeouts were correct.

They are so few and far between, that it hasn't made a single difference. And the beat goes on, and on, and so on.

Mike

No, your understanding is incorrect I am afraid. However the complete and total secrecy under which these actions have been taken (until this thread) could of course have left you and others with that view.

The one month OMNI posting ban initiated a few weeks back based on the thread link I posted above was not I understand pre-advised to Randy. He was simply a "cc" along with the email to the Flyertalker involved.

I feel a month ban for anyone based on that thread was absurd. Given the many FAR more severe posts one sees there each week that attract no interest, censure or penalty.

It is not my call, but I am entitled to an opinion on the action as is everyone else. It has driven away a regular Flyertalker as he felt is was unwarranted and voiced that view to FT Admin.

A previous one week (not month as I posted) OMNI posting ban on another extremely valuable and prolific Flyertalker has caused him not to post since either. And quite possibly many others.

Again, I am trying to understand how this stuff benefits Flyertalk?

Well the US Navy is absolutely the world's best, so maybe a free lesson might be learned from them?

I feel CERTAIN Randy deep down would indeed prefer all our posts were indeed focused on "miles and points". Last time I looked this board was called FlyerTalk not PoliTalk, MuslimTalk or BushTalk etc. There are 10,000 other BB's that cover those areas rather nicely.

When Randy cancelled OMNI completely in 2003 due to all the previous problems the chorus from some posters was: "Pretty pleeeeeez give it back - we will play nice from now on" and he took those members at their word it seems.

nako's post above seem to indicate this has not occurred: