And yet, in both of these fora, if you were to go and read them, the same problems would exist.

That is my point. I chose to no longer partcipate in OMNI because I didn't feel that, by and large, the solutions proposed would change anything. And I still feel that way. But just because I am not there, or don't read it, doesn't mean that the problems magically disappear. Remember, the issue here is about personal attacks on FT, not personal attacks upon me in OMNI.

Hiding one's head in the sand, as you are suggesting, doesn't change anything. It is merely avoidance of a problem that will continue to exist.

Mike

[This message has been edited by nako (edited Jan 13, 2004).]

Hey! My Omni Troll scale is copyrighted!

Much as I'd suspected ... Will so have to make sure I miss it...

As to OMNI, "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound?" Likewise, adults should be able to get along or move along. If moderating assistance is required, then the parties involved should request it. A "problem" is not a problem unless someone proves it is (in most cases, true problems require no proof aside from pointing the moderator at the right thread; other problems really AREN'T problems.)

As to this issue with "tin-foil hat crowd" or "drink the Fox News kool-aid" remarks, IMHO, 1. you'd have to demonstrate that you were an intended recipient of the disparaging remark; 2. it was not a generalized remark (like, "I hate them" - those types of remarks are usually general enough as to be like typed frowns or scowls); and 3. the remark was intended SIMPLY to make someone else feel bad.

Nako, I feel your objections do not "pass go" as personal attacks. You may very well FEEL bad about what you read there, but that is not sufficient to be a personal attack. I feel bad when I hear people use pejorative names, but that doesn't make them personal attacks (which is not to say it doesn't STILL violate the TOS against racist speech and is thus time-out-able). I feel bad about being pushed and shoved on the subway during my commute, but it is almost NEVER a personal attack - just thoughtlessness, selfishness, any number of things, but it is not personal.

I agree with wharvey and CameraGuy on this topic. As a person who does enjoy chat (and I am a "regular"), I have met very nice people because of chat, and enjoys reading DIFFERENT opinions on the forums (many that I do NOT agree with btw). But if you don't like it, don't read it. Ignore it, skip it, go to another forum. But please don't put things down because it's not YOUR cup of tea.

I think that some people seem to take this board wayyyyyy too seriously. What I love is the fact that so many divergent people come together to meet because or our common love of travel.

I agree with the fact that some posts are mean-spirited and personally attacking, but it seems to me that this same argument continues to come up month after month. Seriously, if you don't like reading some of the posts or posts by certain people, why do you continue to visit the board or forum where you know they may post?

And frankly, really, as to OMNI since the big shutdown, it's a LOT better, I think, than it was before. In fact, I think it's as good as it ever was. Those who, intentionally or not, stirred up trouble are either gone or changed (like moi - ); so that on the whole, it's a good bunch of posters in OMNI who are observing the rules. In fact, sometimes it reminds me of the old Crossfire with Bob Novak and that old, well-dressed, crinkly-faced Democrat I liked (can't remember his name - think he's passed away now, sadly), in which they took the gloves off but never ever got personal. Hard to do, but it gets easier over time/as you age.

Liz, I agree with you 100%. If an annoying, incorrect, or even obnoxious post is enough to get FTers all wound up and upset, I'd say that their lives are pretty good.

I'm not gonna lie to you: once in awhile an FT post really gets going. Its amazing what taking an hour away from the computer before posting a reply can do, though. And if after an hour you're still upset, either the post should be truly offensive, or maybe its time for a self-imposed timeout? It is something to consider.

As for OMNI, its meant to be a place to discuss religion, politics, and other controversial and not-so-controversial topics. As mostly adults around here (and I would guess that 97% of FTers are over the age of 16) maybe its time to start seperating the argument from the person advancing it.

Let's be honest, I'm finishing up a Politics degree; politics are something that I love to discuss with my friends in the department (incidently some of my best friends). We love to debate the issues; I often find myself fundamentally disagreeing with many of my friends. When the debate is over, though, the argument is put aside. My friend remains my friend - aren't we all grown up enough to do that?

Finally, as a somewhat-regular on FT chat, I have to say it has been the one thing that has most attracted me to this community (and kept me around). If chat were to go, its likely that I would spend a lot less time around here as well.

And yet, I'd probably get crucified if I were to take a theoretical position that went to the effect of "Homosexuality is a learned behavior that can be cured, and not a genetic issue."

(For the record, I don't believe that - so please don't flame me for it.)

I'd venture a significant population here on FT would nail me to the wall, call me an anti-gay spewing hate speech, scream about TOS violations, and call for my immediate banishment from this site - even though I singled out no individual person, made no generalizations about any particular group (unlike Droneklax's repeated right-wing bashing), and am not saying it just to troll.

Somehow, I smell a wicked double-standard.

To be honest, anonplz, I don't care what you think about this matter. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what my opinion should be, or what my feeling is. I am personally offended about repeated comments about right-wingers being mindless sheep, because it *does* make an implication that I'm stupid. It does generalize about a particular group. And yes, it is a personal attack because I am a part of the group that is, apparently, too stupid to rationalize independent thought.

And if calling someone a sheep isn't meant to make that person feel bad, what the h*ll is it supposed to do - be a f*cking Hallmark card?

Give me a break. Then again, maybe I'm the one who needs a break, from FT as a whole.

Mike



[This message has been edited by nako (edited Jan 14, 2004).]

I agree. I also think the Omni moderators are doing a darn good job.

I really find it hard to believe (my opinion, of course) that any reasonable Flyertalker who makes valuable contributions to the boards in general would leave FT all together just because of what may or may not have happened at Omni.

By the way, the person who started this thread never mentioned Omni (maybe he or she was referring to Air Canada or Delta ), so sorry for going off topic!

I don't feel comfortable having moderator decisions being scrutinized in an open forum, by people who are not involved in it, and don't seem to comprehend what goes on behind the scenes or seem to understand the history taken into consideration in a decision. IMHO these are issues that should be taken to email to the moderators or Randy. Starting discussions on specific members has never been allowed so I don't see any reason to do so.

And just for the record, in certain decisions we have taken, Randy not only backed us but told us we were being "weak" and should have handed out a one year ban.

To all members of the justice establishment: sometimes rules are the problem and not the solution.

Randy has enough to worry about and a business to run without "run to Daddy" becoming the norm. We will destroy these fora if we continually take up his time with trivia.

Outside of OMNI (which I healthily ignore) the problem of non-transparency diminishes FlyerTalk. Particularly, we have the circumstance of IndustrialPatent and the following dissonances:

It would be much better for healthy participation on these boards if timeouts were explicitly given and explained.

When litigiousness and arcane rules supplant justice, and opacity in the service of lawsuit-avoidance overrules clarity of enforcement, we are in the long run doomed.

------------------
"It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity..."

Quote by blairvanhorn:
By the way, the person who started this thread never mentioned Omni (maybe he or she was referring to Air Canada
__________________________________________________ ________________
The AC forum seems to regulate itself pretty well thank you...I know it puts moderators out of work but we like it that way. The only troublemakers we have had recently are gone right now, driven out of town by those who love AC the way it is.
And we have a lively set of exchanges over there.

I'd hardly say that a group of people driving others "out of town" is a good explanation why a forum doesn't need moderation.

Thanks for the laugh

If you don't like it, don't read it!

it happens that I (notice to ) dislike it only after reading it ...