It is ALL about caving in.

ONE member is on a crusade to mold FT's Moderation policy to closely mirror the FAILED Moderation policy of another site.

I don't read the UA forum very often (Too many scams and schemers), but I do know that the CO & NW forums are not flooded with coupons and I hope that they never will be.

I am in agreement 100% (Gawd I love NUMBERS), what is so confusing about the structure of FT?????????

I do not recall ever having seen a thead discussing the fact that FlyerTalkers are restricted from offering airline/hotel specific coupons on the forum to which they relate.

Do any such threads exist?

Quite to the contrary, as has been pointed out, it is quite common for FlyerTalks to offer program specific coupons on the appropriate program forum. Why all of a sudden is this a problem?

Again, specifically how is FlyerTalk enhanced by this restriction? Posting coupons on specific forums in the past certainly hasn't "cluttered" them. What other objective could be achieved by this practice?

I hope you'll forgive me if I don't go along with your wish to equate Punki's opinion with common sense?

I venture to say that the UA forum already has hundreds of threads. It looks like 24 from this morning already. Keeping coupon ones in there hardly makes them 'easy' to find.

Forget intuitive, is it enabling??? FT has, for quite some time, reached a point where using the search engine is a necessity if you're looking for information. Keeping a lot of posts in one forum can't change that.

The description of The Coupon Connection is:
"The exchange forum for legally transferable coupons issued by various frequent traveler programs." UA's is: "Discussion regarding United Mileage Plus." But you think the intuitive place to look for coupons is the UA forum?!?

A million posts, thousands of members and posting guidelines should be up to the whims of individual posters?

I can think of worse fates for FT than having the interpretations of Randy-appointed moderators implementing Randy-set guidelines developed in part by Randy and FT-membership selected members being enforced.

There should be no rules because people won't follow them? Talk to the hand.

I don't really care and can very well live with posts of rebates/vouchers etc in either forum.

For these three posts that have been moved, I don't see why those interested in the specific offers should object, by posting in to the 'wrong' forum first, being closed there later by moderators and moved to coupon connection, the posts weres finally doubled and attention was for sure higher (as is the case for any closed thread probably) than 'normal'.

Be happy and let the moderator do their 'job' (and in these instances doing so, raising general interest in such specific posts ...) - no big deal is it?

Randy, this is one thread on which I would like your input.

It is your intent to restrict FlyerTalkers from posting program specific coupons on the forum to which they apply, even when it is their clear intent only to give those coupons to active participants in that specific program?

Here are some of the reasons I usually avoid posting gifts on the coupon connection.

1. I get too many responses from new people who appear to be looking for handouts, rather than seasoned FlyerTalkers.
2. Those responding often do not qualify to use the coupons and don't understand why.
3. Those who respond do not know how to use the coupons.

All of this takes up way too much of my already limited internet time.

Further, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or turn anybody down, so rather than post on Coupon Connection, I either post my extra coupons in the appropriate forum, or hand them out privately to employees, kids, neighbors or internet friends via e-mail.

Punki-

Nice try, but if you use consistent logic to try to understand the way these boards are being handled, you'll only drive yourself nuts.

You can't have UA-only coupons on the UA board 'cause, gee, they belong on the Coupon Board. How childish-I've got status on UA and I never go to the Coupon Board. Meanwhile, over on Miles Buzz (one of the better moderated boards, in my view) they have dozens of posts on US Savings Bonds interest rates, which connects to Miles Buzz about as much as discussing the warranty on tires you buy with your credit card.

It would be great to have a hands-off policy, let threads of no interest die a natural death, and let others stay alive for those who want to participate. Well, that ain't what's happening. Randy addressed this a month or two ago-his only public statement that I've read- to the effect that, overall, things are ok with him as they are.

I have been posting less to FT than I used to, in part because of the frustration with inconsistent moderation, and in part because I am surfing elsewhere to find more hard info on FF programs' award availability and other value issues.

Now we can watch this thread for all the neat-and-tidies to come in with "I think the moderators do a great and we should all support them". Now there's a thread that never closes.

Maybe it's the best time for you to be posting, as I think you got it right the first time, the topics were inappropriate!

A place for everything, and everything in it's place.

And as FlyerTalk gets bigger and bigger (which it is) and gets more visitors and participants, it becomes more important than ever for these categories to be enforced.

Part of the attractiveness of FlyerTalk's airline programs forums is that folks can come visit and generally find appropriate Mileage Plus program subjects being discussed. Sure there are United The Airline food and service issues also being discussed. But they all have to do with United's overall operations.

Coupons trades/giveaways between individuals have nothing to do with that, IMHO. If allowed, it would clutter up the airline forums and make FlyerTalk less attractive to current members and newcomers checking us out. We'd be a Newsgroup!

I seem to recall back when Coupon Connection was created, that it was specifically designed to funnel all award trades away from the airline forums, for this very reason!

If allowed, it would also diminish the effectiveness and attractiveness of Coupon Connection, IMHO.

Recently I noticed a couple of coupon offerings in the United forum. Shortly there were more. And the sprinkling turned to a trickle. And if the Moderators had not done their job, I'm sure it would have developed into a stream.

Three cheers to the Moderators for doing a fine job on this, and keeping Coupon offerings...all Coupon offerings, where they belong. In the Coupon Connection!



[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited Dec 22, 2003).]

Thanks MountainTrader! I assure you that my use of consistent polite logic, even when it is met with sarcastic emotionalism, won't drive me crazy. Only my kids and Hunki know how to push my crazy buttons.

Like I said, PremEx, it has always been (and in most forums still is) common practice to post coupons in the appropriate program forum, whenever a poster was so inclined to do. I think most FlyerTalkers love that and it certainly hasn't cluttered any forum that I have seen.

Maybe we should poll the UA flyers and see what they think.

Common practice...hardly! I think most post in Coupon Connection where they belong. It's anything but common practice to see Coupons being swapped in airline forums!

Has it happened before? Yes.

Besides, "common practice" doesn't necessarily mean it's the right or best way to do it, anyway. For all the reasons stated in my post (none of which you address in this "debate") about the creation of Coupon Connection.

Vote? Completely irrelevant as that would only give you input from those handful that care to vote (and as we know, with multiple handles, there is no accountablity as to how many times one person can vote)! At some point you have to make decisions on your own if you want what you build to be something different. If you allow democracy to rule your endeavor, you could end up with a Newsgroup where the monkeys run the zoo. Besides, you're never going to get a vote from someone that comes to FlyerTalk's United forum...sees a bunch of coupon trading...and leaves never to return again.

What you will see is scores of eBayish coupon brokers and wheeler dealers flood the United forum with their "offers" and needs!

Airline forums should only have threads started that have to do with the airline and it's operations, IMHO.

There is a place elsewhere for trading on FlyerTalk. And many, many other places for trading elsewhere on the internet.

And you can't allow folks to post in violation of organizational rules, just because they feel it will get more readership or a more targeted audience that they want. IMHO.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited Dec 22, 2003).]

I've still got other such issues to respond to but while i am here, let me get a comment in.

I wholeheartly agree with the moderators here. For you Punki, let me take a few minutes to pass along some information that may put the role of moderators in a different light. First of all, the move to put the offers in Coupon Connection was correct. For the reasons offered by others, it makes sense to me that these types of offers, regardless of orgigin or program involved be allocated to CC rather than an airline/hotel specific program. The clutter and other comments offered here ring true to me.

But for me, that's not an issue here. For me, it's the issue of a member assuming a moderator was/is wrong. Let's take a look at this particular issue and using facts, see if we can't win a member or two over, once, as Paul Harvey might say, you know "the rest of the story."

Moderator finds this information and it appears to him as being misplaced. A true judgment call. Right or wrong, he was in a position to make a "judgment call." But what did this moderator do? First thing he did was to contact anoither moderator to ask his opinion. He didn't have to, but moderators work as team players and in the best interest of our members, if in a judgment call they feel another set of eyes might be helpful, will ask. In this case, the moderator did ask an other moderator - craig6z. This other moderator looked it over and agreed with the first moderator's judgment call. I find that very professional and considerate of members posts to take the time to do that. The verdict, 2-0 to move the thread. But wait, the moderator even considers one additional point of feedback, not because they expected any challenge to this, heck, it's not that significant a post. But while in a dialog with another member - not a moderator, but a very well-respected member who has a long history (very positive contributions) with FlyerTalk - PremEx, who "expressed concern that the United board was getting more and more posts that were really Coupon Connection material." That comment and the timing seemed to make this 3-0 that perhaps this posts was more in kind to the goals of Coupon Connection.

The point here - is that, regardless of your thoughts that a moderator simply moves this world of FT at whim and really doesn't seem to be considerate of members when moving a post, this particular incident actually is a typical example fo what really goes on with the efforts of our volunteers. Not always, but this one just happened to be on record.

So, bottom line - even without the factual backup here, I think the moderator did the right thing and tried to make the Coupon Connection excatly that - based on my guidelines and seemingly, the feeling of at least three other members. A majority? Who knows. But at least it was a topic of common courtesy to discuss it amongst themselves before moving it. I would hope that all our moderators observe and make a move of any thread that seems to fit within the guidelines of this one. And as noted, I think the moderator in this one incident is owed an apology and perhaps congratulations for the manner in which he did make the thread move.

From me Chuck - nice job, and thanks for remembering the orginal goals and general direction of posts of FlyerTalk.

Thanks Randy.

And Thanks to the other United moderators on this and their general involvement and contribution to that forum.

In fact, Thanks to all moderators...even the ones I don't know of or have reason to interact with. Your contribution of time to help make FlyerTalk a much different and better place to visit than any other Frequent Traveler Bulletin Board on the internet, is greatly appreciated.

Occasional mistakes and all!

While Randy has issued his ruling, and an important commentary on the role and functioning of moderators, I think the rationale behind the rule has been very ably expressed by Sebastien and PremEx (and saved me from trying to take a stab at it).

As Flyer Talk grows in size, it becomes more important for information to be logically organized so anyone can find it, and participate.

Issues like informative thread topic titles, subject-related posts, and posting in the proper forum, become ever more important.

What kind of a library would you have if everyone decided where to shelve their books, or even circulated petitions on their view of the best way to organize the collection?

If the library analogy fails, try this. Adhering to organization and the simple rules to maintain it is really about courtesy and manners. It is about respect for the thousands of posters who wade through posts daily. It is about consideration for your fellow Flyer Talkers' time!

Anyone seeking or offering a UA coupon can easily do so with the help of the "search" function. An offeror seeking only a "loyal UA flyer" can do a simple search of the airline forum in question of the posts by that would-be-recipient. I suspect that those who would "take the law into their own hands" are not taking full advantage of the wonderful capabilities offered by that search function.

The fact that it is FT policy that gifts cannot be offered within a specific program forum, is certainly news to me, and I still don't see the logic behind such a rule. Such gifting within program fora has been happening, and helping to build community, on FT right since the beginning. But then, you learn something everyday, well at least if you keep you mind open.

SPN Lifer your post covers folks who are seeking coupons and/or trying to give coupons away, but excludes the serendipitous gifting that binds program participants together and helps create a strong community.

I, for instance, will happily offer gifts to my friends within a specific program forum, and those will be joyfully received by regular posters thereto. I will not, however, offer a valuable gift (say a SWU or Companion Certificate, and it looks like I will have some extras this year) in Coupon Connection because there is way too much of a gimmee, gimmee, attitude going on there these days. So instead, I will offer my gifts via other venues and that is a net loss to FT. How much of a loss depends on how many other folks feel as I do, which was the point of the poll, which unfortunately was shut down and moved. Too bad as it could have provided valuable insights.

I will also be unlikely to benefit from a Coupon Connection offering because I avoid going there, exactly because of the gimmee, gimmee, atmosphere.

The only logical reason that I have seen posted that would justify forbidding people to offer gifts within a program forum is that that would "clutter" the forum.

That, however, just makes me smile. I can hardly imagine anyone saying, "I am just not going to post in the UA forum anymore. It is way too cluttered up with people offering gifts of SWUs, Companion Certificates and 15% discount coupons. Disgusting!"

Randy is smart and certainly open to input--he may not change his mind, but in my experience he will always listen. IMHO, calm, rational discussion should be encouraged, not shouted down. Listening to the opinons of those who disagree with us, is often one of the best ways to learn.

"Shouted Down"????????????????????

You need to get over yourself. FT does NOT revolve around you.

Every 6 weeks or so, you launch another of your "FT's Moderation is not to my liking" crusades. Anyone who agrees with you is OK, yet anyone who is tired of the same old whining is "Shouting Down".

That is ridiculous.