TalkBoard (again)
 

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000028.html

What's up?

I speak only for myself, Randy, but I'd like to know what the heck ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif) is going on!

FlyerTalk is my favourite site on the web. I love this site and I have learned so much.

I have edited this post because it was perhaps not as constructive as I had wished. My own choice.

Once again, PremEx posts something worth reading (imho!).

Spiff, Go! Thanks for your message.

[This message has been edited by blairvanhorn (edited 02-15-2002).]

Randy, my advise would (and has always been) to not have a TalkBoard.

FlyerTalk was and should remain YOUR personal vision, IMHO. And all in all, with it's few minor flaws, it remains something better than anyone else has come up with. And it can continue to improve and grow just fine without TalkBoard. And probably more efficiently and with less headaches!

Of course you can take advise from any of your members that sends some in to you and which you think is a good idea.

Walt Disney once said, "I don't rely on just my story people for ideas for films, or my Board of Directors for ideas on how to run the company. A good idea is a good idea no matter where it comes from. If the gardner out mowing my lawn has a good idea for a film...I'll use it!"

Committee management in the creative fields have almost always been a disaster. Success in creative fields has almost always been achieved by one strong voice, opinion and vision.

I would recommend you keep it simple. And that would be that if you like a particular idea, go ahead and impliment it. If it turns out everybody hates the idea and you feel you made a mistake, just say, "Oh well, we tried something new and it didn't work." and remove the change.

Please, I would feel much better if you would continue to make the decisions on your own. Take good advise wherever you can get it or whenever you think you need it.

And you don't need an advisory board for that!

Simpler is often better.

IMHO.

Give us a chance, there's 33% new blood and I believe a willingness to move forward and cooperate.

Not that you need -- nor welcome -- my input, Randy, PremEx hits the nail on the head again...

Not to dwell on a particular issue but we feel that GLBT forum issue remains in limbo yet again due to latest change in the TalkBoard http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif I'm not sure which way I feel about having a TalkBoard vs Randy directing the board by himself, but I hope we get this issue resolved soon. I've gotten many e-mails regarding how unhappy they are that this issue has taken so long to resolve.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments of PremEx's post. The extreme flexibility given to the board continues to be counterproductive, and Randy's direct leadership would be much more beneficial to the community.

However, I also understand that Randy has only so much time to contribute singular vision to projects, and he should and must choose the projects that put food on his family's table, and not on FlyerTalk.

I again ask that Randy hold on here until replacement leadership is stable and functioning. Like a builder's representation on a condo board, there's no reason why he can't establish all the rules and pass a fully functioning board onto the membership in 6 months rather than have them start it all.

Leadership IS stabilizing and we will move forward on these and other issues. I am very new to the TB but I think things are ready to move forward.

Would it be ok to say that TB experienced Growing pains.

I think that now that the original appointed members have moved on, we can move forward as Spiff stated above.

Dan

since when is this a democracy?

Dan,

What is that supposed to mean? I would love for you to elaborate...

Dorian

As for democracy, I thought that I would make something very clear......

Although Spiff, Wharvey and I were appointed, we were appointed because we had the next highest three votes counts in the ELECTION, therefore we were democratically elected by YOU, the FT community.

I share PremEx' opinion - this "institution" seemed almost doomed from the start: a committee seldom achieves anything. Judging from previous posts and controversy it's quite clear that no amount of growing pains will suffice. FT is a community, it's getting richer and better thanks to the input of ALL members, good and bad (within the limits of the Board’s rules). It does however need one leader, to make crucial decision, not a committee.

The point about keeping it simple is such a welcome change - let's try to do just that.

[This message has been edited by Canista (edited 02-16-2002).]

I also agree with PremEx

I don't.

Dorian

Dorian,

Sorry to disappoint you, but there are no hidden messages in what I said. Please don't drag me into something.

As for PremEx's statement...Randy set up Talk Board with the best of intentions. Ok. So I'll grant you it's taken some time to get started. Rome wasn't built in a day.

One day, in the next 6 months, or 2 years hence, we'll all be glad there is a Talk Board to advise Randy.

Many flyertalkers have been impatient. Well, that's life. But if you're patient you'll eventually be rewarded.

Dan

I think PremEx has said it best: Simpler is often better. And you BIG BRUDDAR said it better than I ever could.

Let us ALL give ideas and let you, Randy, decide what you will implement. (TalkBoard can ALL THE FLYERTALKERS!

Trust me: If your ideas don't work WE"LL certainly tell you very quickly.

We have to fight for upgrades and points; why fight among ourselves?

Because I do not know how the Talkboard operated, I find it hard to decide if its difficulties are due to HOW it functions ( do members actually meet physically, how often, are debates structured and limited in time, etc.) rather than to the fact that the Talkboard entity itself is by nature dysfunctional on FT.

I hope you get my meaning.

Premex seems to think that the latter is true but I am not convinced.

Perhaps a reconsideration of how the TB carries out business is in order, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

In any case, I am sorry to see Punki throw out the towel, but I fully understand her point of view.

Droneklax writes: Actually I don't have a clue as to what's going on. Frankly I don't even pay attention or visit the TalkBoard forums.

All that I know is that Randy created FlyerTalk mainly from scratch and he did a great job, IMHO. And considering that he doesn't even visit the site as often as most of it's members, I think it operates better than most internet bulletin boards out there.

This fact gives me confidence in Randy's ability to do the right thing most of the time based on his judgement and his judgement alone.

I just don't think he needs some advsiory panel that gives it's members more weight in voice than any other member of FlyerTalk.

A good idea, is a good idea, no matter where it comes from.

Additionally, and something that I did not mention in my previous post:

I have seen damage to people that the dynamics of such a panel will likely always produce. A clash of egos here on FlyerTalk is much more a certainty than in most other ventures, and would certainly be present on TalkBoard.

Personalities here have always been more ego driven than in other places. But that goes literally with the program. Status, elite, privilage, entitlement, all come into play here as part of FF programs and by extension, often the personalities of many of FlyerTalk's members, in my observations.

We can argue about committee management as being inefficient, or Talkboard members getting perceived empowerment big heads, or the monkeys running the zoo analogies all day.

I just think it's unnecessary and forsee it generating more conflict than the good it will produce. Good that Randy could have probably done quicker, more efficently, and without bruising egos and conflict.

All without a TalkBoard.



[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 02-19-2002).]

Repeating and elaborating on a comment I made in another thread:

Randy should give-up the idea of a talk board and appoint Premex his dictator designate. In fact, I nominate Premex as Sha of Flyertalk. Why?

1) Randy has a business to run, and has shown time and again that we ask too much of him to run that business and act at our whim on this board. If Mark, (Premex) were to run it, Randy could get back to his business.

2) Randy and Mark have shown that they can have a good working relationship, collaborating (scheming) during the first PIP and countless other times.

3) Mark has shown himself to be one of the most (if not the most) trustworthy member of this community. He (unlike MANY others who've been here for a while) never lets personal relationships cloud his judgement or prevent thim from acting on or speaking about what he sees as morally inappropriate (other than the sheep jokes).

3) He has practical experience in setting up and running travel related websites (PIP site, Catman-do site, The now defunct unofficial United Airlines site, etc.) He has a huge amount of relevant professional experience.

4) I've never heard anyone say anything negative about him, save for one person, who was banned from this site because of his behavior. And this persons negative comments were because Premex took the high road, and spoke out against a problem.

5) I (and others) have made multiple past pledges to help fund Flyertalk in some way. If it would be deemed appropriate by Randy, I'm sure Premex could be somewhat compensated in this manner. What we would be buying is someone to concentrate solely upon hearing, judging and solving the community's issues with more time devoted than any head of Inside Flyer/Webflyer can spare.

So again, I nominate Premex dictator. I would hope his first move would be to dissolve the Talkboard (or just allow it to continue to collapse from the weight of it's own hypocrasy), but I assume he would see my comments as just one individual's opinion based upon personal experiences, and regardless of me or anyone else, just do the right thing.

Please feel free to disaree with me. In fact, if the same people disagree with me who always do by rote, I will be very appreciative, as it will again (as always) serve as confirmation of what a good idea it is.

Further, if someone were to perhaps post not just an opposing viewpoint from their heart in their own words, but were to take the time to find almost everyone of my posts on the subject of the talkboard and post links to them here, and also take the time to find any words in those posts that could be used as "amunition" and further quote and highlight them out of context with no purpose other than to engage in a personal, hurtful attack - than this would show beyond any doubt that that this person has no real life (save for Flyertalk - which is doubly sad because he or she can't even follow it's own rules) and would also show that he or she is the type of low-life scum that would not just disagree with someone, but go out of their way to premedtiate and plan that attack, just to try to inflict the maximum damage. That type of reply would do nothing but show how correct my points actually are, and how sad the individual is.

But I'm sure no one in our community would stoop so low as to do that here in Randy's forum. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-20-2002).]

LOL!

NJ David writes:

Randy should give-up the idea of a talk board and appoint Premex his dictator designate. In fact, I nominate Premex as Sha of Flyertalk.

AND I SECOND THE NOMINATION! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For all the reasons NJDavid gave... and NOT because PremEx is my BIG BRUDDAR.

Oh God no!

The Mein Führer of FlyerTalk is hardly a title I would relish.

But thanks for the kind words (I think) anyway, NJDavid. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

But whenever and if ever Randy asks for my advise, I'd be happy to give it to him...gratis. As always. As I'm certain most of us would.

Dictator sounds so... dictatorial. How about Emperor, or better: First Consul , head of a triumvirate.

We already have a Queen, and a few Queens on FT, so high-caliber leadership will not be an issue....

Well dictator is not the right word.

I say... CHIEF SHEEP HERDER ;-)

"We are poor little lambs who have lost our way..."

CATMAN (who just wants to be the comic relief of FT)

---

Admittedly, I'm no expert on "hypocrasy" yet I think your view of the TalkBoard has been expressed with some real "vigor" in ealier threads. As was previously summarized in this thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000637.html

Just a modest sampling of some of your recent posts regarding this issue reveals desriptions and terms including:

"hypocrisy"

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000582.html

"tainted sham"

"irreversably removes any credibility from what otherwise might have been a good initiative"

"Randy's 'Flyertalk' name is stained"

"travesty"

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000014.html

"anarchy"

"storm troupers"

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000608.html

Needless to say, with all due respect, I do not agree with you one iota!

---

Is it possible that the "TalkBoard" is actually a part of Randy's vision? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

FWIW, as I see it, the nascent TB, is simply a devoted, earnest group of "representatives" who help to serve the entire FT "community" by effectively funneling all the collective ideas, complaints, etc, to Randy & Co, in an organized as well as expeditious manner. Randy would not necessarily be obliged to abide by the policy recommendations - at least as I presently understand it. He would remain as the one who serves as the ultimate arbiter in any case! So there'd be no danger to his "vision" as I see it! If I'm wrong, however, I'm sure I'll be corrected! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

And it surely could work very well with the right "mix", IMHO! Co-operation and negotiation would of course be essential, as well as an atmosphere of mutual respect. Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

link to standard response to Doc personal attack

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-24-2002).]

doc speculates: Yes Doc, and thank you for furthering my viewpoint on this! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The point is that perhaps Randy didn't need a TalkBoard to come up with the idea!

And if he feels TalkBoard was a mistake or is too much trouble, as I say in my post above:

The idea of a "dictator" is a VERY BAD idea. I'd much rather accept the current democracy (no matter how much NJDavid bashes it - and no matter what its faults).

BTW - I feel the same about the other so called "benevolent despots" ruling some nations.

So, you believe that Randy is not solely in charge of Flyertalk? And that a body of anonymous e-mail accounts (with no verification) that elected on-line representatives into a "board" is a "democracy"?

OK. Sure. No Problem.

---

Great! I, for one, am VERY glad to hear that this "issue" is now finally resolved! Thanks! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Randy owns the web site. I'd much rather have users be represented by someone they choose to elect rather than someone whom NJDavid thinks highly of (no offense to PremEx or to NJDavid here - and to get the gist of what I am saying replace NJDavid with any other FT user).

Its fine to me that we all are "anonymous e-mail accounts with no verifications". The failure of MoreMiles shows that the verification does not really bring anything of substance.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 02-20-2002).]

THAT is a completely different subject. I doubt that the people still active there would call it a failure, even though I would agree with that classification. I do not agree it was because of verification. I believe it was because the people involved let personal relationships override their sense of morality. One either has rules, or does not - "rules for only some" will always lead to anarchy.

Verification brings honesty and trust. Rules bring order and equality. Enforcing them in a large community is essential for the health of all it's members. Here on FT, allowing the "election" or appointment of known rule breakers and/or people who'd rather just close their eyes, go get another drink and tell a joke than do anything about the problem and/or people who do not believe in rules in the first place doomed the Talkboard from the start. You have the results of that failure here for all to see.



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-20-2002).]

IMO, honesty and trust ONLY exist when you've got NOTHING else to go on but faith in the other individual.

The last time I checked, Travelocity will not sell you airline tickets on faith. If you want them to take you seriously, you give them your home address and credit card number. They only risk their services on you when they trust you are an honest customer. Faith is cute but irrelevant on the internet.

Randy had faith in his appointees to the Talkboard...'nuff said.


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 02-20-2002).]

"Randy had faith in his appointees to the Talkboard"

To the best of my knowledge, Randy still has full faith in his appointees (the old/resigned ones: Punki, svpii, dorian and me, and the new ones), and I see now reason why he shouldn't.

And yes, I don't know of any still activ founder member of that 'other' board (and trust me, I know them very well), that would judge that 'other' board a failure.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 02-20-2002).]

---

Travelocity? FT? Selling you airline tickets? Risk?

So if only Punki, Rudi, Dorian and Pam would have provided Randy with their credit card numbers and their proper home address... what??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

FWIW, are there never any errors on Travelocity?

And therefore what? Your "point" is what, exactly? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

Life is so very simple for some, it would appear!


As "brilove" among others, once commented previously:

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...ML/001065.html

VERY wise words indeed, IMHO! It's all about travel and miles and points insofar as I can see. I'll be most pleased now to get back to the proper subject matter at hand! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Have a great evening everyone!

Hey NJDavid...

This quote of yours: "Randy had faith in his appointees to the Talkboard"

...well it goes both ways buddy!


Dorian

--


While I speak only for myself, of course, I agree and strongly believe that this is quite true and that most, if not all FT'ers, share this view that Randy made VERY fine selections and that he did so with the very best intentions, and in the best interests of those using and contributing to these FT boards! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

While I too admittedly wish that they all remained intact, I also assume that all the TB members also did their very best under the circumstances presented!

Sadly, now providing a link to another thread they willfully chose to initiate, drenched in both irony and pathos, entitled "Personal topic to save typing" serves as their latest apparent "solution?"

When is it time for a genuine "intervention" of some sort? Or has that time perhaps already passed? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Perhaps we can ALL look within ourselves to eek out the very best in each of us - and let's move ahead in peace with a willingnss to help each other! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by doc (edited 02-20-2002).]