I remember reading this somewhere on FT, but I can't find it anymore, so I'll ask.

Regarding the new rules on surface segments:

do surface segments count towards the total limit of 20 segments only?

or

do they count towards both the continental and the total limits?

I read the rules but I found no clear answer ("A minimum of 3 and maximum of 20 segments, including surface segments, are permitted for the entire journey").

Thanks!

Surface segments count towards the total limit of 20 along with flight segments, but only flight segments count towards the continent allowance.

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Thanks guys!

I thought it might be so, but you're never sure...

Hi,

I'm trying to understand the surface segment rule, and when surface segments are permitted. I'm considering a DONE4 that would begin in the U.S. Can I do a surface segment between BKK and SIN? Can I do a surface segment between somewhere in Europe (say Madrid) and somewhere in the Middle East (say Israel)? My reading of the rules from ExpertFlyer is that the answer to both questions is no, but I'd be curious if someone could confirm. (I have searched the various posts, but haven't quite found a clear answer to this question. I do know that the surface segments, if allowed, would count toward my total (though not continental) segment limit.) Thanks very much.

Also, while I'm asking stupid questions, here's another--I feel like I've seen a number of posts where folks state they can't go from Africa to South America without crossing into Europe. Is DKR - EZE on LA not an acceptable routing on a xONEX? Or is the issue just getting to Dakar? Thanks again.

Yes as both are in Asia

Yes as both are in Eu (according to Oneworlds definition of continents)

Yes. thats the way it is.

What flight? Is DKR - EZE on LA metal and with one LA flight number and a direct flight?

Here is a new oneworld mapper: oneworld Interactive Map (cut & pasted from post by SERFTY)

Land segments now count towards the 20

The issue is "getting to Dakar". i.e. On oneworld, the punter needs to travel via Europe to get there.

That is interesting. So in theory you could do an DONE3 out of Australia if you have a surface segment JNB-DKR. But of course they don't issue those tickets when originating from the South Pacific.
Nice thought anyway.

Alert - there is no Oneworld metal crossing the south Atlantic. All travel between the Americas and Africa must route via Asia, Europe, or the SWP.

So, thank you for the replies, I really appreciate them, and I apologize in advance if I'm just being dense. But here's what's confusing me. Mwenenzi says that I can go surface from BKK to SIN because "both are in Asia." Here's what the rules say: "SURFACE SEGMENTS PERMITTED AS FOLLOWS- A/ WITHIN THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. B/ WITHIN THE MIDDLE EAST C/ WITHIN SOUTH AMERICA D/ BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA E/ BETWEEN HKG AND CHINA F/ BETWEEN BANGLADESH AND BKK/SIN G/ BETWEEN MALAYSIA AND SIN H/ WITHIN AFRICA." I don't see anything about "within Asia." It says "within Africa" and "within South America," but not within Asia. And I read F as permitting surface between EITHER Bangladesh and BKK OR between Bangladesh and SIN, but not between BKK and SIN. Isn't that what it says? Are there some other places where intra-Asia surface segments are permitted, and why wouldn't it be in the above list if there were? If surface segments were automatically permitted within a region (e.g., Asia), why would the rules need to say that surface segments are permitted within Africa and South America and the Middle East. Doesn't the fact that Asia is NOT in that list suggest that surface segments are NOT permitted within Asia (except in the circumstances expressly listed in E, F, and G, above).

Same question for Europe. Surface segments are permitted "within the Middle East." Now, maybe that's okay because, say, Israel is in the Middle East, but I still wouldn't think a surface segment from Madrid to Israel would be "within the Middle East" (rather, it would be "within" the Middle East/Europe). But how is a surface segment from MAD to BCN within the Middle East?

As for the direct flight from Africa to South America, I found it on the One World Mapper that Mwenenzi linked to and I was playing with last night. It's LAN airlines flight 8264. Gardyloo, isn't LAN One World metal? So why isn't that permitted? (I definitely acknowledge that getting there might not be easy.) I don't see any reference to it being a codeshare.

With respect to serfty's the question, the idea would be to, as DownUnderFlyer suggests, travel One World to JNB and then surface to DKR (which clearly IS, per the above rules I quoted, permitted, since it's "within Africa").

Thanks again folks, and sorry for the redundant questions. Can someone please help me with my confusion?

jgold, you need to read the rules in their entirety, not pick and choose certain words. The phrase you quoted actually states:

In other words, you must end the trip wherever you started it, unless it meets one of the above exceptions.

You can generally do an open jaw (surface segment) wherever you want except for across the oceans. Yes, the segments count against the 20, but, no, they don't count against the continent segment allocation.

Additionally, all flights must be on Oneworld metal. While I have no idea who Lan codeshares with out of Dakar, I can confidently say that it is in fact a codeshare and not with another oneworld carrier.

You absolutely cannot, under any circumstances, do a DONE3 out of Australia.

You are absolutely right, the flight is listed as such, and going on that info there is no reason at all for the flight not to be valid, except that such flight just does not exist; it is a figment of the mapper's imagination. Just look at the details provided:

LAN flying EZE-DKR nonstop on a DC-3.

ROTFLMAO! What kind of a sick joke on the part of the flight database providers is that?

As mentioned by Darren that is not what the rule says, but apart from that you looking at the wrong rule. The rule covering surface segments that you are interested in is this one:

OMG what a hoot.

And at 11:55 for 4243 miles, the longest and fastest DC3 trip in the history of the world. Atomic Goonie Bird - yowsa.

Jgold, very sorry for the pejorative tone. I'm now going to explore the map to see what other nuggets are hidden there.

Thanks to everyone for their help. And, just to be clear, I'm not trying to prove a point and parse words in order to be right (or wrong for that matter). I'm just trying to figure out what the rules are so I can book my super-duper trip. Actually, I'm thrilled to be wrong about when I can do surface segments since my interpretation would have made it very hard to do the trip I want. So, thank you very much, and I totally apologize for my misreading, and am happy to learn that I can do intra-region surface segments without exception, and can even begin and end in different countries as listed on lines 81N - 88N.

As for the Dakar-Buenos Aires flight, again, I'm just trying to figure out a way to start a Global Explorer trip in Europe, then go to Africa, and then head west. My understanding is that the Global Explorer (as compared to the One World Explorer) doesn't permit me to backtrack through Europe (i.e., LHR) to head west. Maybe I'm wrong about that too? I'm just basing it on my reading of the rules and discussion with the AA RTW desk, but who knows.

As for the flight from Africa to South America, I looked at it again, and here's the details off of One World's website for the SAO version of the flight I mentioned (the One World map lists direct flights from Dakar to both Buenos Aires and Sao Paolo):

Scheduled flights u Return flights
From: Dakar, Senegal (Yoff)
To: Sao Paulo, Brazil (All Airports)
Depart T Arrive T Carrier - Flight number Stops Duration Aircraft
23:55 DKR 04:25 +1 VCP LA 8264 Non-Stop 6 hrs 30 min DC3

That's 3,292 miles in about 6.5 hours. Is that an unreasonable amount of time for a flight like that? Again, I'm just trying to figure out if I can run a Global Explorer west that goes Europe-Africa-S. or N. America. I did call up the AA RTW desk to ask about this flight and the woman I spoke with first said this flight didn't exist, and then said it did. On the other hand, ExpertFlyer, ITA, LAN's own website and everyone else on this board seem to deny the existence of the flight. So, I guess the consensus is that there isn't any such flight??

Thanks again for everyone's help.