IB oneworld days numbered?
Apr 25, 2007 | 10:58 pm
#32
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Hope I got it correct from my last lecture about aviation... The question of landing rights can be a tough issue. For IB, it all depends from the bilateral agreements between Spain and the third countries IB flies to (this does not affect European and all other flights which operate under an open market/open skies agreement).
Let me make an example to clarify: if Spain and Country X have an agreement that regulates flights between the two countries and this agreement includes limitations based on nationality (i.e. only Spanish and Country X carriers can fly these routes), then the takeover could become a problem. If more than 50% of IB is taken-over by BA/LH and therefore IB becomes a British/German company, it might lose the flight rights that are sealed in this kind of agreements (since IB wouldn't fulfill the nationality requirement anymore). The Spanish government would in this case have to renegotiate a new agreement with Country X (and all other countries with similar agreements) to avoid the loss of such rights for IB. Technically, I think it's a question of introducing the so called 7th freedom in the bilateral agreement (i.e. the right to carry passengers between two foreign countries without continuing service to (or originating service in) the carrier's own country). Hope some of the experts can help on this last point.
This is exactly what is happening in Switzerland too. LX hasn't officially been taken over by LH yet (shares are being held in a trust), since the Swiss government is negotiating new bilateral agreements to prevent LX from losing these rights when it becomes a German company.
Let me make an example to clarify: if Spain and Country X have an agreement that regulates flights between the two countries and this agreement includes limitations based on nationality (i.e. only Spanish and Country X carriers can fly these routes), then the takeover could become a problem. If more than 50% of IB is taken-over by BA/LH and therefore IB becomes a British/German company, it might lose the flight rights that are sealed in this kind of agreements (since IB wouldn't fulfill the nationality requirement anymore). The Spanish government would in this case have to renegotiate a new agreement with Country X (and all other countries with similar agreements) to avoid the loss of such rights for IB. Technically, I think it's a question of introducing the so called 7th freedom in the bilateral agreement (i.e. the right to carry passengers between two foreign countries without continuing service to (or originating service in) the carrier's own country). Hope some of the experts can help on this last point.
This is exactly what is happening in Switzerland too. LX hasn't officially been taken over by LH yet (shares are being held in a trust), since the Swiss government is negotiating new bilateral agreements to prevent LX from losing these rights when it becomes a German company.
the LX situation is slightly different as Switzerland is not in the EU ( although IIRC there was some sort of peculiar arrangement where the old SR was counted as an EU carrier so that it could take over the old SN )
For airlines from EU member states things are slightly different don't forget that over time the individual bilaterals between EU member states and other countries are being amended as they come up for renegotiaton to prevent discrimination on a carrier basis - for example last year the New Zealand - UK bilateral was amended to state that any EU carrier can operate UK-New Zealand services , it may take a few years but eventually these sort of agreements will be in the majority and then ownership will be less of an issue so long as it remains within the EU.
Incidentally , how did JK manage a few years ago when they ran a small number of longhauls ops ( IAD , HAV and EZE IIRC ) because they are majority owned by SK which is definitely not a Spanish customer - the bilaterals didn't seem to stop them then .
Apr 26, 2007 | 3:33 am
#33
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Apr 26, 2007 | 3:50 am
#34
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For airlines from EU member states things are slightly different don't forget that over time the individual bilaterals between EU member states and other countries are being amended as they come up for renegotiaton to prevent discrimination on a carrier basis - for example last year the New Zealand - UK bilateral was amended to state that any EU carrier can operate UK-New Zealand services , it may take a few years but eventually these sort of agreements will be in the majority and then ownership will be less of an issue so long as it remains within the EU.
Incidentally , how did JK manage a few years ago when they ran a small number of longhauls ops ( IAD , HAV and EZE IIRC ) because they are majority owned by SK which is definitely not a Spanish customer - the bilaterals didn't seem to stop them then .
Apr 26, 2007 | 3:54 am
#35
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Updates from the pink paper
To me, the FT is salmon rather than pink.
Apr 27, 2007 | 3:18 am
#36
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I thought you really meant the pink paper and wondered why they would cover that story. To me, the FT is salmon rather than pink.
To me, the FT is salmon rather than pink.http://www.pearson.com/index.cfm?pageid=14
May 22, 2007 | 3:05 am
#39
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Jun 29, 2007 | 8:27 am
#40
Join Date: Apr 2005
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OK, this is very strange. Iberia completely ignored the bid today during the shareholders' meeting apparently-no discussion of it whatsoever.
Link
Link
Sep 3, 2007 | 5:20 am
#43
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So it looks like BA/TPG will make a bid, but are in a holding pattern because of credit issues in the global markets...
Link to FT
Link2
Link to FT
Link2
Dec 17, 2007 | 2:21 am
#44
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Posts: 1
Iberia ask Lufthansa to enter in the company.
Iberia's Deputy-CEO Mr. Blesa ask Lufhansa to enter Iberia's Capital as soon as possible .
The public declaration was made last Thurday during the commemoration of the 80th anniversary of Iberia .
"In comments to journalists during an event celebrating the 80th anniversary of Iberia's maiden flight, Blesa appeared to encourage a move from Lufthansa.
"Iberia is not expensive at this price, we also bought at this price (3.60 euro/share). (They should) get on with it", he said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...L1318120071213
"They" are Luthansa.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/19fc2952-a...0779fd2ac.html
Caja Madrid has adquired BBVA and Logista stakes on Iberia , reaching a 23% stake on IB , making Caja Madrid the de facto ruler on IB.
British Airways had the right to first refusal and get the shares but didn't exercise it's option . Obviously BA had no interest in Iberia apart from trying to prevent it from joining LH.
Caja Madrid has given BA an ultimatum regarding Iberia : either you get involved in Iberia or we will open the door to Lufthansa .
A decisive Caja Madrid- BA meeting was announced last week by Mr. Blesa , Caja Madrid's President, for this week Dec 17-21 .The consensus is that BA will sell it's 10% .
In the meanwhile Caja Madrid has asked Lufthansa to enter Iberia NOW .
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...L1318120071213
"Blesa quiere cambiar de socios estratgicos en una Iberia espaola: Lufthansa en lugar de British "
In english ,"Blesa wants to change strategic partners on Spanish Iberia: Lufthansa instead of British Airways"
http://www.cotizalia.com/cache/2007/...os_iberia.html
The process was delayed because a change on the Spanish adquisition laws , the new one entered into force on August 13 , and the credit crisis that started in August .
It's obvious .
LH will not get a large stake on IB , because there are several Spanish firms interested on making an "exclusion bid" for Iberia and make Iberia a private company
"Caja Madrid escucha ofertas para lanzar a Iberia una opa de exclusin"
http://www.expansion.com/edicion/exp...o/1069310.html
Since WW took over BA , it was evident the lack of interest .
But now Caja Madrid is determined to expell BA and replace BA with LH.
By the way , Caja Madrid has said that Air France is NOT an option because the conflict of interest with AF LatAm routes .
IB people told me that IB will be a full right member of Star Alliance by May 2008.
The new USA routes announcement are frozen until the situation is resolved
No doubt
The public declaration was made last Thurday during the commemoration of the 80th anniversary of Iberia .
"In comments to journalists during an event celebrating the 80th anniversary of Iberia's maiden flight, Blesa appeared to encourage a move from Lufthansa.
"Iberia is not expensive at this price, we also bought at this price (3.60 euro/share). (They should) get on with it", he said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...L1318120071213
"They" are Luthansa.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/19fc2952-a...0779fd2ac.html
British Airways had the right to first refusal and get the shares but didn't exercise it's option . Obviously BA had no interest in Iberia apart from trying to prevent it from joining LH.
Caja Madrid has given BA an ultimatum regarding Iberia : either you get involved in Iberia or we will open the door to Lufthansa .
A decisive Caja Madrid- BA meeting was announced last week by Mr. Blesa , Caja Madrid's President, for this week Dec 17-21 .The consensus is that BA will sell it's 10% .
In the meanwhile Caja Madrid has asked Lufthansa to enter Iberia NOW .
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...L1318120071213
"Blesa quiere cambiar de socios estratgicos en una Iberia espaola: Lufthansa en lugar de British "
In english ,"Blesa wants to change strategic partners on Spanish Iberia: Lufthansa instead of British Airways"
http://www.cotizalia.com/cache/2007/...os_iberia.html
In the next 2-3 weeks it's expected TPG to make a formal bid . When the first formal bid will be launched , in the next 30 days additional bids should be made , the Lufthansa bid plus perhaps some last minute surprise .
By the end of May , beginning of June the winner will be know , but few people here doubts that it will be Lufthansa plus a new Spanish Investor.
By the end of May , beginning of June the winner will be know , but few people here doubts that it will be Lufthansa plus a new Spanish Investor.
Numbers also favors the LH option for IB .
LH will not get a large stake on IB , because there are several Spanish firms interested on making an "exclusion bid" for Iberia and make Iberia a private company
"Caja Madrid escucha ofertas para lanzar a Iberia una opa de exclusin"
http://www.expansion.com/edicion/exp...o/1069310.html
BA show lack of commitment for the Oneworld alliance . BA flights to Spain wouldn't move to new T5 at LHR , plus multiple others examples .
But now Caja Madrid is determined to expell BA and replace BA with LH.
By the way , Caja Madrid has said that Air France is NOT an option because the conflict of interest with AF LatAm routes .
Obviously IB will swith to Star Alliance , http://www.staralliance.com , as soon as possible .
The new USA routes announcement are frozen until the situation is resolved
It makes much more sense for IB an alliance with LH than with BA .
Dec 19, 2007 | 8:15 pm
#45
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CH
Programs: LH
Posts: 1,780
Very good post
first time in the oneworld thread, I liked your post.
Personally, I would like to see StarAlliance to have more connections to latin America. LH has three, SWISS one, TAP a couple, AC some as well, but if you do not want to enter certain countries, options are limited with *A.
Nevertheless, I doubt that LH will be keen to take over IB. It will take some time until LH would commit to something as big as taking a steak in IB.
I will take the developement in this matter into close eyes.
CU