To All WP Elite Members:
Yesterday I was chewed out by a Silver Elite member who says he was "assured" an upgrade on the 7:25pm flight 251 DTW-PHX by the agent in MKE.
I told him that there were a couple Platinum Elites and quite a few Gold Elites ahead of him on the Passenger Processing List (PPL).
He felt that since he was "first on the list" earlier in the day that he should have been first on the list--PERIOD. I told him that Platinum Elites receive the highest priority, regardless of the time they are put on the PPL, then come Gold Elites and finally, Silver Elites.
He couldn't understand how the upgrades work and felt that he should have been upgraded. He went on to bash the WP program and tell me how worthless his Silver Elite card was and how the agent in MKE lied to him. I tried to explain that the agent in MKE was probably correct at the time, that he was first on the list, but when Plat/Gold Elites check in, they also go on the list, but at a higher priorty.
Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
[This message has been edited by MRJ1964 (edited 04-07-2001).]
Yesterday I was chewed out by a Silver Elite member who says he was "assured" an upgrade on the 7:25pm flight 251 DTW-PHX by the agent in MKE.
I told him that there were a couple Platinum Elites and quite a few Gold Elites ahead of him on the Passenger Processing List (PPL).
He felt that since he was "first on the list" earlier in the day that he should have been first on the list--PERIOD. I told him that Platinum Elites receive the highest priority, regardless of the time they are put on the PPL, then come Gold Elites and finally, Silver Elites.
He couldn't understand how the upgrades work and felt that he should have been upgraded. He went on to bash the WP program and tell me how worthless his Silver Elite card was and how the agent in MKE lied to him. I tried to explain that the agent in MKE was probably correct at the time, that he was first on the list, but when Plat/Gold Elites check in, they also go on the list, but at a higher priorty.
Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
[This message has been edited by MRJ1964 (edited 04-07-2001).]
You ask a good question and present a problem that surely arises in every single FF program.
First, I understand the policy of upgrading based on status. NW should reward its most frequent flyers and this is one way to do it.
However, there tends to be a lot of misinformation passed on to paxs. We don't get the airline handbook. We don't have access to codes and the inside fine print. We certainly don't get to peek over the counter & review everything on the computer screen. We get our nice little membership guide & muddle along as best we can.
This site is the best way for most people to get information. And if one is not a true frequent flyer or simply obcessed with miles, one never knows the real skinny. Gate agents & those at the check in counter have a schedule to keep. They move fast & try to answer questions, but they don't always get it right. A pax can only go on what she/he is told.
From personal experience, I am sure the first agent did assure him he would be upgraded. He just didn't explain that could change in 30 seconds if a GL or PLT showed up. That information, is not in the WP membership guide and isn't explained.
We are all taught from pre school to stand in a line & wait our turn. "no cuts" is the watch word since kindergarden. So, yes, it erks when you've waited (& waited & waited) only to be displaced by johnny platinum last minute.
I have been assured many times. I have been told "you're all set". I have learned to take that as the equivalent of "no problem" in a foreign country. There is a problem, you aren't all set, and we assure you of nothing. Some people don't have that mind set. Until I am holding a boarding pass with a seat assignment in the front of the cabin, I don't believe anything anyone tells me.
Now, should it be first come first served? Yes, if that is how you market/sell it. However, if its really first come first serve unless someone with more status than you strolls up 15 minutes before boarding whilst you have been camped out in the departure lounge for 4 hours just to ensure the upgrade, make it public.
Tell paxs that no matter when they checked in, no matter their fare class, if someone has higher status, you are S.O.L. If the rules were clearly defined and everyone understood, problems later would be greatly reduced.
First, I understand the policy of upgrading based on status. NW should reward its most frequent flyers and this is one way to do it.
However, there tends to be a lot of misinformation passed on to paxs. We don't get the airline handbook. We don't have access to codes and the inside fine print. We certainly don't get to peek over the counter & review everything on the computer screen. We get our nice little membership guide & muddle along as best we can.
This site is the best way for most people to get information. And if one is not a true frequent flyer or simply obcessed with miles, one never knows the real skinny. Gate agents & those at the check in counter have a schedule to keep. They move fast & try to answer questions, but they don't always get it right. A pax can only go on what she/he is told.
From personal experience, I am sure the first agent did assure him he would be upgraded. He just didn't explain that could change in 30 seconds if a GL or PLT showed up. That information, is not in the WP membership guide and isn't explained.
We are all taught from pre school to stand in a line & wait our turn. "no cuts" is the watch word since kindergarden. So, yes, it erks when you've waited (& waited & waited) only to be displaced by johnny platinum last minute.
I have been assured many times. I have been told "you're all set". I have learned to take that as the equivalent of "no problem" in a foreign country. There is a problem, you aren't all set, and we assure you of nothing. Some people don't have that mind set. Until I am holding a boarding pass with a seat assignment in the front of the cabin, I don't believe anything anyone tells me.
Now, should it be first come first served? Yes, if that is how you market/sell it. However, if its really first come first serve unless someone with more status than you strolls up 15 minutes before boarding whilst you have been camped out in the departure lounge for 4 hours just to ensure the upgrade, make it public.
Tell paxs that no matter when they checked in, no matter their fare class, if someone has higher status, you are S.O.L. If the rules were clearly defined and everyone understood, problems later would be greatly reduced.
Russ Hinkley addressed this issue in the FT Chat, albeit somewhat indirectly.
The official hierarchy for clearing gate standby upgrades on NW is :
Platinum
Gold
Silver
Platinum Companion
Gold Companion
Other
The official hierarchy for clearing gate standby upgrades on CO is :
Platinum
Platinum Companion
Gold
Gold Companion
Silver
Other
Within each sub-category, you are sorted by the time you were added to the list.
The official hierarchy for clearing gate standby upgrades on NW is :
Platinum
Gold
Silver
Platinum Companion
Gold Companion
Other
The official hierarchy for clearing gate standby upgrades on CO is :
Platinum
Platinum Companion
Gold
Gold Companion
Silver
Other
Within each sub-category, you are sorted by the time you were added to the list.
I can understand that the complexity of upgrade priorities is hard for some passengers to grasp. Nevertheless, I think a priority that moves from highest elite (plat) to lowest (silver) is fair, and furthers the elite system as rewarding those who travel the most. I say this after twelve years as a gold/platinum, now a silver in retirement. However, this priority should be explained when it seems the pax is missunderstanding it. No agent should say "You have the upgrade".... they should always say "You are on the list, but the list changes as higher elites check in". That should be enough explanation. Then, fifteen minutes or twenty minutes before boarding the seat assignments should be finalized based on whose is at that time checked in. It is not practical for a platinum to be given the seat when he/she rushes up five minutes before departure, for that would tend to delay flights, especially if a number of standbys are involved. So, yes... (1) follow the priorities beginning with plat, (2) explain briefly and never guarantee a seat that may change, and (3) set a time- say 15 minutes before departure- when the seats will be assigned, and after that unchanged.
Quote:
Originally posted by MRJ1964:
Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
I think this is rather an academic question, since it assumes that whatever the policy is, the agents will actually understand it and/or pay any attention to it. My understanding of the current policy is that "whatever the hell the agent feels like doing" is the most important factor, perhaps with elite status in the fine print somewhere.Originally posted by MRJ1964:
Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
Wow, I can't believe we are really discussing this. Of course it shoul be by status, I can't believe any rational person would view it otherwise. Let's face facts -- some people are a**holes, some people are stupid, and some people are both. I think it is this last type that MRJ ran into.
All that notwithstanding, a couple of good points are brought up:
1. All airlines in general could be better about explaining how upgrades work to passengers.
2. All airlines in general could do a better job of training agents on proper policies.
2.
All that notwithstanding, a couple of good points are brought up:
1. All airlines in general could be better about explaining how upgrades work to passengers.
2. All airlines in general could do a better job of training agents on proper policies.
2.
eja, I don't think that's a fair thing to say. We are given guidelines and are expected to follow them. When we don't, we are "coached" on company policy.
I was "coached" and a rather lengthy disseration put into my computer file when another agent, working in my sign, bypassed (albeit accidently during the last few minutes of a hectic flight to Tampa) a couple of revenue stand-by pax, one of whom was plat elite, and put on NW employees. With good reason, the woman who was bypassed called Customer Relations to report what happened.
So, erj, we cannot really do "whatever the [] we want" without consequences.
I have never had any problems from Platinum or Gold Elite members, as they know how the program works. But when NW gives out Silver Elite status like it's going out of style, there are bound to be problems. They tell these people that their paper "Guest Silver Elite" card gives them "unlimited domestic First Class upgrades". What they don't tell them is that they fall behind a myriad of other elite members and it's very misleading.
Some sort of explanation should be included in the member directory, or at least better explained to the pax when checking in.
I was "coached" and a rather lengthy disseration put into my computer file when another agent, working in my sign, bypassed (albeit accidently during the last few minutes of a hectic flight to Tampa) a couple of revenue stand-by pax, one of whom was plat elite, and put on NW employees. With good reason, the woman who was bypassed called Customer Relations to report what happened.
So, erj, we cannot really do "whatever the [] we want" without consequences.
I have never had any problems from Platinum or Gold Elite members, as they know how the program works. But when NW gives out Silver Elite status like it's going out of style, there are bound to be problems. They tell these people that their paper "Guest Silver Elite" card gives them "unlimited domestic First Class upgrades". What they don't tell them is that they fall behind a myriad of other elite members and it's very misleading.
Some sort of explanation should be included in the member directory, or at least better explained to the pax when checking in.
In Memoriam
Okay so how do the above comments reconcile with the following statement from the elite guide;
In fact during the time that I was silver I used that statement as a reason to arrive early and insure my placement on the list. Although and I mean a big although now that I am a gold member i hear voice mails on Elite Upgrade Messaging that state a couple of days before the flight that "your upgrade has not cleared for flight xxx and you have automatically been placed on the waitlist."
Confused as I am. Having said that I have had near-miraculous success over the years as a silver (better than my gold record) for upgrades. But and we will make this a big but I still purchase an economy ticket and until I either hear a voice mail (which I do not erase immediately) or have my boarding pass in hand I fully expect and plan to sit in coach and insure that I have gotten the best seat available (per my preferences) in coach at the time I purchase the ticket or 90 days out if I've purchased the ticket prior.
[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 04-08-2001).]
Quote:
The airport priority standby list is limited by the number of seats available in First Class on each aircraft. Once the list is full for a particular flight, the system will not accept additional names. This process is automatic; Elite Services reservations agents cannot add names to the standby list.
That statement seems to indicate to me that if a bunch of silvers arrive early and fill the list than late arriving golds and platinums can not even get on the list. Okay you are getting ready to leave for the airport and you do not have an upgrade and itn is showing P2 F0. How many names are put on the wait list. Two? Fourteen?The airport priority standby list is limited by the number of seats available in First Class on each aircraft. Once the list is full for a particular flight, the system will not accept additional names. This process is automatic; Elite Services reservations agents cannot add names to the standby list.
In fact during the time that I was silver I used that statement as a reason to arrive early and insure my placement on the list. Although and I mean a big although now that I am a gold member i hear voice mails on Elite Upgrade Messaging that state a couple of days before the flight that "your upgrade has not cleared for flight xxx and you have automatically been placed on the waitlist."
Confused as I am. Having said that I have had near-miraculous success over the years as a silver (better than my gold record) for upgrades. But and we will make this a big but I still purchase an economy ticket and until I either hear a voice mail (which I do not erase immediately) or have my boarding pass in hand I fully expect and plan to sit in coach and insure that I have gotten the best seat available (per my preferences) in coach at the time I purchase the ticket or 90 days out if I've purchased the ticket prior.
[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 04-08-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by magic111:
[b]Okay so how do the above comments reconcile with the following statement from the elite guide;
At the airport, if someone asks us to put them on the PPL for a possible upgrade, we do. We usually do not tell people, "NO, I will not put you on the list because there is no chance in [...] of you getting in First Class".
Before boarding, you may hear the agent say something like, "For those passengers standing by for First Class on Northwest Flight 251 to Phoenix, all those except Jill Smith and John Smith are asked to take their original seats in the Main Cabin when your row is called". This because two people with F class reservations have not checked in, but we must wait until 15 minutes prior to departure before clearing stand-by First Class passengers.
Lots of times, 15 minutes prior to departure when we start to clear the PPL, we call someone's name only to find that they have already boarded. Since we don't have time to run down to the plane, see if they still want their F upgrade, then run back up to the desk to clear them off the list and run back down to the plane to give it to them then run back up to call the next person, we bypass them and call the next name.
In quite a few cases, the passenger who "had no chance in [...] of getting in F class" actually does because all the stand-bys ahead of him chose to board in the Main Cabin.
I hope that explains how we work the processing list and gives you an idea of what we're up against.
My advice is to wait until 15 minutes prior to departure, or ask where your name falls on the list. Even at 15 minutes before if you don't get First, you should still find ample room to stow your carry-on luggage.
[b]Okay so how do the above comments reconcile with the following statement from the elite guide;
Quote:
The airport priority standby list is limited by the number of seats available in First Class on each aircraft. Once the list is full for a particular flight, the system will not accept additional names. This process is automatic; Elite Services reservations agents cannot add names to the standby list.
Once the list is full, THE SYSTEM will not accept additional names. THE SYSTEM being a computer which will only put X number of people on the PPL as there is a finite number of F class seats. The reservations department does not have access to putting names on the PPL since that is only an airport function.The airport priority standby list is limited by the number of seats available in First Class on each aircraft. Once the list is full for a particular flight, the system will not accept additional names. This process is automatic; Elite Services reservations agents cannot add names to the standby list.
At the airport, if someone asks us to put them on the PPL for a possible upgrade, we do. We usually do not tell people, "NO, I will not put you on the list because there is no chance in [...] of you getting in First Class".
Before boarding, you may hear the agent say something like, "For those passengers standing by for First Class on Northwest Flight 251 to Phoenix, all those except Jill Smith and John Smith are asked to take their original seats in the Main Cabin when your row is called". This because two people with F class reservations have not checked in, but we must wait until 15 minutes prior to departure before clearing stand-by First Class passengers.
Lots of times, 15 minutes prior to departure when we start to clear the PPL, we call someone's name only to find that they have already boarded. Since we don't have time to run down to the plane, see if they still want their F upgrade, then run back up to the desk to clear them off the list and run back down to the plane to give it to them then run back up to call the next person, we bypass them and call the next name.
In quite a few cases, the passenger who "had no chance in [...] of getting in F class" actually does because all the stand-bys ahead of him chose to board in the Main Cabin.
I hope that explains how we work the processing list and gives you an idea of what we're up against.
My advice is to wait until 15 minutes prior to departure, or ask where your name falls on the list. Even at 15 minutes before if you don't get First, you should still find ample room to stow your carry-on luggage.
MRJ1964:
I'm surprised to hear that NW is the exact opposite of CO on boarding. CO encourges everyone to board at the earliest opportunity. If I am on the waitlist for an upgrade and it clears, they come to my seat and bring me up to first class. This has happened numerous times to both myself and my wife (also Plat elite) and it works very nicely. The big advantage, obviously, is that one does not lose access to carry on storage space in the overheads by waiting in the waiting area to see if the upgrade cleared. I can board first with my status and be assured that if F/C opens up, they WILL come for me. I have confidence in this system. Now, if they could only get their EUA autoupgrade system to work reliably, which I have no conficence in......
I'm surprised to hear that NW is the exact opposite of CO on boarding. CO encourges everyone to board at the earliest opportunity. If I am on the waitlist for an upgrade and it clears, they come to my seat and bring me up to first class. This has happened numerous times to both myself and my wife (also Plat elite) and it works very nicely. The big advantage, obviously, is that one does not lose access to carry on storage space in the overheads by waiting in the waiting area to see if the upgrade cleared. I can board first with my status and be assured that if F/C opens up, they WILL come for me. I have confidence in this system. Now, if they could only get their EUA autoupgrade system to work reliably, which I have no conficence in......
I had a very similar thing happen. I checked in in CID for CID-MSP-CLE and was told MSP-CLE was booked, but they put me on the wait list. I asked how far down the list I was, out of curiosity, and he said just a second..<tap tap tap> You're first now. He bumped me to the head of the list somehow, even though I was only silver. When I checked at the gate in MSP, the gate agent looked at the screen and <tap tap tap> I was number 14 on a list of pax waiting for 2 seats. :-)
On the other hand, the gate agent in CID didn't "assure" me the upgrade -- just that I was first on the list. I was a bit miffed that I was bumped back down the list, initially, but I thought about it and realized that it was really unfair that I was bumped to #1 in the first place, so didn't argue.
On the other hand, the gate agent in CID didn't "assure" me the upgrade -- just that I was first on the list. I was a bit miffed that I was bumped back down the list, initially, but I thought about it and realized that it was really unfair that I was bumped to #1 in the first place, so didn't argue.
Quote:
Originally posted by MRJ1964:
Lots of times, 15 minutes prior to departure when we start to clear the PPL, we call someone's name only to find that they have already boarded. Since we don't have time to run down to the plane, see if they still want their F upgrade, then run back up to the desk to clear them off the list and run back down to the plane to give it to them then run back up to call the next person, we bypass them and call the next name.
This is exactly the sort of thing that annoys me the most. I mean, even Continental seems to possess the advanced technology to print out the list and go find the appropriate people on the plane. This has happened on nearly every CO flight I have been on, but NW is baffled. So many "policies" only seem to exist at the whim and convenience of the agent. If the agent is busy, which is always, policy goes out the window. What is the point of it all?Originally posted by MRJ1964:
Lots of times, 15 minutes prior to departure when we start to clear the PPL, we call someone's name only to find that they have already boarded. Since we don't have time to run down to the plane, see if they still want their F upgrade, then run back up to the desk to clear them off the list and run back down to the plane to give it to them then run back up to call the next person, we bypass them and call the next name.
I had a supervisor at DTW tell me that regardless of whether I am already checked in, that I must present myself to the gate agent if I hope to get an upgrade. The reason being that the gate agent will invariably be too busy to call out names, and will give the upgrade to anyone firmly known to be in the gate area. Another time, apparently even this process was too fraught with uncertainty, as I watched (from the back) an agent finish working the flight and promptly appropriate for herself a vacant seat up front. I guess I didn't make much of an impression.
I mean, come on. I seriously don't mind not getting an upgrade if it is going to someone with higher status, since those are the rules. Unfortunately, I've come to learn that I can't trust NW to abide by even the simplest of its own rules if doing so should require a modicum of effort, and that is sad.
Back to the original question:
Yes, it is unfortunate that this guy was not correctly explained the procedure in Milwaukee, and that he failed to grasp the concept of Elite status playing a part in this system, and even more unfortunate that you had to suffer the consequences of these circumstances. But, there is no way to make it any fairer for your most frequent travelers than to let Elite status be a major factor in deciding who get the available First Class seats.
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Blue Skies to you all!
Quote:
Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
Yes, of course Elite status should come into play, even more so now that NW is reserving several P class seats for last minute Full Fare/First Class ticket purchasers. (Which, by the way, I am all in favor of.) Think of it in this perspective; if those 3 or 4 seats, or whatever the number happens to actually be on that piece of equipment is, were not being saved, chances are a Gold or Platinum member would already have them, so why should we be punished because a Silver member checked in 3 hours before us in another city before arriving at the hub, when we happen to be originating in the hub on that day? Who cares if, because a lot of us are traveling on business and usually running a little behind as a result of this, we check in 15 or 20 minutes prior to departure? I, as a Platinum member, should sit in the back of the plane, while a Silver member, who checked in at Milwaukee 3 hours ago, sits in front just because I was originating in DTW, or wherever that day, just because he came first, so therefore should be served first? Come on; get real.Do you think the upgrades should be on a first-come/first-served basis, or should the member's Elite status figure into the equation somehow, as it is done now?
Yes, it is unfortunate that this guy was not correctly explained the procedure in Milwaukee, and that he failed to grasp the concept of Elite status playing a part in this system, and even more unfortunate that you had to suffer the consequences of these circumstances. But, there is no way to make it any fairer for your most frequent travelers than to let Elite status be a major factor in deciding who get the available First Class seats.
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Blue Skies to you all!