Thanks for this post, and I agree with you. To add to the dynamic nature of value vis-a-vis one's life stage, allow me to throw in two other factors: choice of airlines and Y-to-J vs. J-to-F upgrade.

First, to qualify as a "savvy" traveler, one had better not be wasting any miles upgrading on most US or other airlines with inferior J & F products. Second, for airlines with a strong J product with flat or lie-flat seats, Y-to-J upgrades are much "savvier" than J-to-F upgrades. For instance, on SQ 77W, F seats offer only minor incremental benefits over J.

Sure if you calculate value with mathematics, looking at fare cost against point spend, then booking a Y ticket with FF pts is not as valuable as booking a J or F ticket with FF pts.

But I have to agree the "to each his own" mentality. I use my points in the way I perceive them to be the most valuable to me, not necessarily the way they are always the most valuable mathematically.

For example, 70k FFP for an NH flight in C R/T from LAX to NRT is an excellent value compared to a Y ticket for 40k FFP on the same route, because the extra 30K FFP for the C seat is worth it in my personal opinion.

For some people, perhaps they need more ticket quantity, so the increased amount of Y tickets they could get for an equivalent would be more important. Or perhaps they have back problems and really need to lay down, so F is a valuable spend.

So I agree - value is in the eye of the traveler.

For me, the FF miles allow me to travel where and how I wouldn't otherwise. For example, I wouldn't fly in coach for 13 or 14 hour to Australia. I can handle it in business or first, but wouldn't pay the huge prce. So the FF miles allow me to go places that I wouldn't go otherwise.

I think you've overlooked the value of systemwides offered by both AA and UA for international travel to top tier flyers.

I've never spent a mile to upgrade since I first got status on UA back in 1992. I won't spend the money, either. Systemwides, though, are a whole different issue. I have 4 itineraries over Jan-Feb that are upgraded on $400 base fares which are a fantastic return on the miles I fly. Maybe that's what you should be aiming for if you want to upgrade.

In our case, my wife and I love to travel to Europe. However, if we fly in economy, she will not get any sleep, and will be cranky and jet lagged for the first 2-3 days. In Biz, however, she is able to get some good hours of sleep before our first day in Europe. (I, on the other hand, can sleep in any airplane seat, on any length flight. I cannot stay awake on a plane.) But we would not spend $4-5000 each for such Biz seats (at least until the kids are out of college).

Therefore, for us (and it is a personal thing), the best use of FF miles is for TATL Biz award seats. We get to enjoy Europe, and it make the difference between a good vacation (wife jet lagged and not really enjoying fully for the first few days), and a great vacation to Europe.

In our case, the "math" is simple. YMMV

I agree with OP 100%. I do however, feel that when the trip is special and involves my wife traveling with me for a 15+ hour flight splurging additional miles for C or F on a good airline can be worth it. it's the difference between the trip starting at the airport as opposed to arrival.

One man's opinion: 1st and Business Class travel is grossly overrated - I think a lot of it is just an ego thing because it makes the front-enders feel "special". I was a UA 1K for a few years and have flown many times in upgraded status - at least 20 times on the ORD-HNL nonstops alone - and I admit it was nicer than sitting in the back of the bus but definitely not worth spending extra money or using miles. Through the years I've redeemed somewhere between 3M to 4M frequent flyer miles, all have been used on saver-type coach awards, I haven't used one single mile on an upgrade.

For ORD-HNL, I agree that it's not worth the miles to upgrade.
That's what CR-1s and e-500s are for.

For routes like ORD-HKG, it does make a big difference and additional miles are well worth it IMHO.

You picked a domestic F service route. No wonder you see little value in the reward there; there is little added value in that upgraded service.

I have redeemed miles for upgrades (domestic only thanks to co-pay issues), international Y and international J tickets. When I want the comfort of the big comfy seat I book it. When I'm not as worried about it I book the Y seat. There are times I've come home from a trip and thought that I should've paid the lower rate and saved miles.

That being said, generally the highest dollar value is achieved by redeeming for long-haul premium cabin rewards. That may not be what any particular individual values most, but it is likely the best dollar value proposition for the miles.

Re the BA forum and the harassment there, I'm not familiar with it, but if folks are booking short-haul Y flights using points out of the UK they probably actually are wasting the points. Often the taxes are a much more significant portion of those fares. Using points saves a negligible amount of money. If they are doing longh-haul it is a bit different, but I know nothing about what they are actually doing.

While I do think F and J are grossly overpriced (most of the time), I don't think they are grossly overrated (also, most of the time). Certainly, on a long-haul international flight where I am traveling for work and have to (a) absolutely minimize the time I spend getting in and out of the airport, (b) go to work immediately after getting off a red-eye, or (c) do tons of work on the plane--which for me requires a lot of pieces of paper spread around and sometimes a laptop--flying in the front of the plane and checking in as quickly as possible really are rather critical. It's either that or spend another day away from home so that I can get to my destination a day early--not something I want to do, given the number of days I'm away from home anyway.

At the same time, when I'm on vacation, usually I don't care about sitting up front--unless it's an insanely long flight. The only time I did use miles to fly in first class, real first, was when I flew to Mongolia for vacation. That was a triumph of booking (PHL-ORD-NRT-ICN-ULN, on two separate tickets), and it was totally worth the 180,000 miles I spent for it.

My feelings exactly. There's usually little point in domestic F, unless you are very tall (I am not) or going home after a very long and hard day (sometimes I am, and then I really appreciate it).

Fascinating, as I am the exact opposite. I have never redeemed for a Y award to the best of my recollection.

The combination of:

- Flying in Y
- Spending miles to do it
- Not earning miles on the flight

doesn't really compute for me, unless there is some sort of emergency and I need a last-minute ticket and I don't want to pay walk-up. That's understandable.

If I'm going to fly in Y -and- I am not earning miles, I might as well book through PL at some deep discount fare. Otherwise I'm spending 50k miles to save just a few hundred bucks, perhaps less, and that's a rather low valuation of miles (mathematically speaking).

Of course, that is only mathematically, which is not the best measure for determining the value of your miles. I speak only for myself, and my core rule still applies: miles are best spent in whatever way makes you happiest, and value is in the eye of the beholder. To each his own.

The premise of this entire thread is wrong. Nowhere, not on the BA forum or anywhere else does anyone deride using miles for Y tickets on LONG HAUL INTERCONTINENTAL TRAVEL. They deride using them for US Domestic flights (other than last minute emergency fares and the like when paid fares can be extortionate) or inter-European travel, where quite frankly it is normally a waste to use miles. One can count countless threads where it has been pointed out that either they are an extremely bad value, or that after fees etc (which the OP pooh poohs) that you an be paying the same or MORE when using miles.

Quite frankly, those of us that fly Long Haul interontinental segments on a weekly basis generally do not care about the food and drink (other than that it is at least okay), what we generally care about is the seat and space, and quite frankly yes many of us will pay a grand or two AND miles to upgrade, because our health and sanity depend on it.

This thread reminds me about a recent DL PMU thread: The flier who spends the entire year flying the lowest possible domestic fares year in and out is probably not going to ever shell out $6k for a ticket, let alone $2k plus a certificate or PMU. however the FF that flies across the ocean monthly will not thin twice. It all is in the eye of the beholder, but OP you have to consider that some here earn 200, 400, 600 or a million FF points a year, so 30 or 60k means comparatively little to many of us.

I agree with sbm12 regarding the best use of miles is for premium long-haul. I have never used miles for an upgrade. I would rather save my miles to be able to go for the next premium long-haul trip. However I see the valid points many others are making. Ability to sleep sitting up may be deciding factor. One's immediate itinerary when landing may be the deciding factor. My neighbor arrived in Paris groggy and shortly thereafter was ripped off at the train terminal. Maybe if she flew up front, this would not have happened. One's body size may be the deciding factor. Whether traveling by self or with SO's may be the deciding factor. I also think to each their own, regardless of cpm arguments.

-outoftown

hfly, the premise of your entire post is wrong. For those of you who have been paying attention, I'm sorry I have to re-state this once more: The actual premise of my original post was simply to say what you yourself hfly said in the last line of your own post - savvy use of miles is determined by the one using the miles and not by anyone else, or, to blatantly plagiarize a previous poster in this thread, savvy traveling is in the eye of the traveler. (Of course there are those cases where some aren't really familiar with how the miles game is played and really do waste miles but we're talking here about those of us who at least have a basic understanding of the relative worth of miles.)
Sorry if I sounded like I was breaking my own rule by accusing others of being un-savvy by using miles for upgrades, which would be just as ignorant as saying that using miles for coach fares is un-savvy. It's just that, for me, In my present physical health and financial condition, using miles for upgrades would be extremely un-savvy FOR ME. This thread has simply evolved into a discussion on that theme, that is, discussing what each of us considers worth our miles. And I have to say, after reading these posts, my definition of savvy mile-use is definitely maturing. I hadn't considered some of the points made. Thanks all for the enlightenment.
So anyway, all you lucky people with zillions of FF miles to toss around carelessly, I envy you for not having to give a rip whether you're being savvy or not with them. I aspire to be just like you! But until then, don't pity me as you watch me pass through your comfy first class on my way to the back of the bus with my fellow proud cattle. Just give me a thumbs up or at least a nice smile (especially if you're a cute, single female).

interesting thread. I've been in the camp of the accused but didn't come right out (IIRC) and say savvy travelers don't use miles for Y award tickets.

I will say that I don't do this very often (have once or twice), preferring to use miles for upgrades to J on long haul international flights. Doesn't mean I'm more or less savvy but in private conversations I've been known to brag a little about getting higher value per mile while enjoying something I normally wouldn't have paid cash for.

Our child has tagged along on another family's trips when I wouldn't have wanted to see money spent this way (mine or theirs). I went along with the argument that the other dad flew a lot and it was his business if he wanted to cash in a bunch of miles so his kiddos could bring friends along. We then did likewise on a trip to Paris, trading in 240k for four tix. It wasn't a good exchange rate but using miles instead of cash made it less awkward to include someone from outside the family.

I can see where using miles earned on biz travel for Y domestic awards might be more valuable to someone, especially if they have no interest in leaving the continent or just don't mind flying coach when they do.

I'll also feel differently once I'm less concerned about requalifying each year, as lifetime PLT seems achievable for me (@2MM).

What works for you, other presumably savvy travelers, doesn't necessarily work for me and vv. I still think my AA miles are best spent on J upgrades or (long shot) getting out of Y en route to Australia (J/F award). I would actually buy miles through AA to get the latter if I was a few thousand short.

Guess the point of all this is I'm guilty of thinking along the lines of the OP's complaint, and will try not to disparage others who for reasons of their own choose to use their miles differently.

Thanks OP for bringing this up.