Airline bean counters are faced with enormous "contingent" (potential) liabilities in the case of all those FF miles acquired by both business and "other" travelers. From the airlines standpoint, the liability problem is aggravated by the the majority of FF travelers attempting to use their miles want to fly to the most glamorous or busiest destinations, the ones with high fares (Every FF seat = lost revenues) or the fullest flights (Every FF seat = lost revenue). Their solution, "back*sswards" at best, has been to trim available seats and curtail the lifespan of miles.

Were I counting corporate beans these days (or sitting behind a desk labelled "Marketing" as I once did), my solution would be quick and almost painless....to induce folks to "burn up" their miles and the airlines' liability by filling seats unlikely to be sold. AA has always offered "cheaper" redemptions "off season" (Fall/Winter) to Europe. A smart bean counter carries that practice a double step forward, offering seats on flights with low load factors at deep discounts in points, filling empty seats for the modest cost of on board amenities. For years, premium seats into Milan on DL were far easier to get than those to/from Rome, and I'm sure that there are off season flights into some "Eurogateways" which take off with lower load factors.

As for domestic destinations, take your pick of many of the "medium" non-hub markets. All the down-sizing to RJs involved flights which couldn't fill larger a/c. For those of us who live in the US's "little spoke" airports, awards are even tougher. The Saab 340s here don't have many award seats, but with DFW 2:20 away and IAH only about 3 fours from my door, I'll drive that far for a "discounted" FF seat into an airport to which I would not normally fly.

From my perspective, the problem of the "legacies" and the negative reaction of long time and hitherto loyal patrons to perceived "loss" of FF benefits is a real lack of creativity by the airlines' Marketing Departments. The FF miles are there, and curtailing awards or trimming eligibility time frames are miserable solutions sure to generate hostility in an already semi-hostile environment. Far better for the legacies to find their empty seats (or the empty seats which may be cheaply available from their partners) and fill them with happy campers who feel they are getting a bargain!

(Admittedly copied from a response I made to a post on Frommers, but I think I'll get a better series of answers at FT...)

Some programs do just that. For example Air NZ Airpoints have airpoints dollars as currency, rather than miles. When redeeming on Air NZ ticketed and operated flights, can use airbucks instead of cash (whole fare only, not partially through airbucks) for any available seat. So the award cost automatically varies according to paid fare.

(Note NZ also has fixed amounts awards on partners, on Air NZ special business class awards for elite members, and for Air NZ upgrades.)

it is good to find and discuss solutions to these problems the airline majors are having. I still blame them though, because they sold miles and marketing schemas to all kinds of portals and it almost looks as though they did this knowing full well they have no intention on making good on the 'promises' of 'free' flights with said miles.

People who 'fall for' the vast array of marketing to the consumer and now wish to redeem for a free flight are finding it harder and harder to do so and the airlines keep coming up with excuses and blaming you and I for actually expecting to get a ticket to Vegas in high season or something like that. Well, that's what they are selling, so I say it either SHOULD be available or they should stop promoting it!

I would love it if the airlines would try to find whole new radical ways of handling this 'monster out of the cave' problem and to do it without having to impose further restrictions or fees on the very people they sell to. That's annoying and archaic. Time to move forward!

I had mentioned this in another thread and in no way do I think it's at all ironed out as an idea, but here's the rough of it:

Promote trading of awards. Make it so people who have miles on carrier X but find they could go to their destination on carrier Y have an easier method of doing this and it's considered OKAY by the industry as a part of business! That way, if you have enough miles to fly to some hot spot but there are no seats, instead of getting mad about it, you are directed to an alternative that may work for you and a friend, and the airline was the one who helped direct you. This could create some new form of loyalty and thusly generate more dollars for the airline who's say something like, "Well, I cant help you this time sir, but they can. Please remember that kind act I just did when you need to fly again, and consider flying with us. TY"

I dunno, it may have wheels... (and I hope my airlines of choice are watching this one!)
MM

I am sorry-but"every FF seat=lost revenue"is pure nonsense.
The airlines are making huge profits on FF miles by selling them to every possible co-brander out there.It really is a patsy scheme where you are suckered into getting this credit card or that one,get this rental car,stay at this hotel-all of which(and others)are paying for those miles.And then you go to cash in your horde o' miles and are told "sorry"none of those seats are available"but you can use them to fly from Burbank to lovely Fresno-only 25,000 miles-oh wait-you want to do it this weekend?That'll be $75 cash please."
If they were not profitable they would not be so many out there up for grabs.

yup, nonsense indeed! And here's how it goes when it gets REAL interesting in FT:

MM: and THAT is precisely why I try everything I can to save a buck, do a scheme to get miles and do things like gift card schemes, selling or trading awards, buy and return things, fight all fees and policies, and such...

Angry Poster with a Self Righteous Attitude: But MM, that's unethical! It's a business and they would NEVER do that stuff you say they do! And you are scamming them. Intentionally doing this is not right and you are a bad person.

MM: so what? they rip ME off. What would YOU have me do? I will keep on trying to find my own ways to skirt the system because obviously, my rantings and writings to the airlines has hardly done any good...

APwaSRA: MM, you bad bad evil doer, two wrongs dont make a right, etc etc. [flame] [blast] [get other posters involved to say this too and then the thread changes to off topic] [ethics, morals, blah blah]

MM: BUT, the airlines rip us off and they need to come up with BETTER ways to handle their own problems that they now make US pay for, blah blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda...

APwaSRA and coherts: you are babbling. Now everything you say is invalid and I will continue to put this on you just because I think it's ok to jab someone on the internet (and somehow there's no 'morals' against that in here?)

Other posters: This thread used to be interesting and about X. Now it's not.

ONE poster: Well I agree with MM but... (post gets ignored by the ethics dude)

Other other posters: one liner snippets with :d icons

MOD: Thread closed.

How'd I do?
MM

I agree with this thought in theory; however, I am wondering how many "empty seats" there really are? I haven't flown internationally recently, but almost all the domestic flights I've been on have been packed. Perhaps I just haven't been flying to the right places.

And if they did that, then we here at flyertalk would have to endure even more threads of "How come I couldn't get the super double discount for the flight I want?????"

FF programs should be changed to $ spent rewards. Flyers buying $1,500 first or full Y tickets should get more rewards than a Mileage Runner that spends $150.

That would be the most logical.

Short

Other than displaying a level of reading comprehension likely to have you heldover in the 6th Grade, you simply missed the point.

The "FF Seat=Lost Revenue" claim applied ONLY to flights which can be predicted to be close to full and those to popular destinations (the LAX vs. BUR syndrome, in which unless you're connecting ... go to LAX anyway?). The way to hold down the cost of FF redemptions is to market them on flights and to destinations with empty seats (and honestly to enourage folks in cities with small airports to get themselves to hubs).

As for the CC miles and other "vendor gimmicks", the same marketing maxim applies. Why see miles used on flights with high revenue and in struggles for few available seats? Very honestly, if I wanted to go to Vienna, AA could get me there far more cheaply getting me from DFW to any NYC airport, forcing me to cross town on my own, and by "purchasing" a seat from Malev to Budapest, a route and destination with fewer folks clamoring to go. FFers here will quickly tell me how to get from Buda to Vienna.

It's simple....First you sell inventory, all that you can, and by methods which minimize potential loss.

I hope the response to your post taught you a valuable a lesson, there is a certain close-mindedness which seems far more prevalent on FTalk these days
Dont agree with the sheep and you are get labelled a six grader.


One wonders some of the "experts" and airline CEO wannabes even fly but they are pretty good at flying off at the mouth

mike

p.s. dont waste your time answering this post I not even going to return here

well I thought the firings across the bow would start later on but it seems they may be here now.

Anyway, I still don't understand how the airline can flood the market with miles and promises only to then say NO if you try to use them. It's like a rebate scheme. They know a certain percentage of people will lose the box top as it were and not send in on time. These would be equivelent to mileage holding customers who do not really know HOW to deal with miles or maintain their accounts and then end up never really getting to award level or letting them all expire. (I do not really have an issue with mileage expiry but I liked 3 years and I like it if there can be cases where someone can extend that if they have a really good reason)

Airlines have to make money but in many ways, they already did when they sold the miles to other marketing entities. So are they greedy or are they trying to make tomorrow's money? AND if they still can't balance the budget, why is that our problem?

Until I can see it differently, I will have a bitter taste in my mouth when I fly. I think a lot of people have this bad taste in their mouths.

--and maybe if I am also acting (or typing) like a 6th grader, I could still be taught how to undertsand all of this without being bullied into the process...

MM

Relax.

Get a soothing snifter of brandy. Mmmmm. Let the vapor work its way up your nose to tickle and soothe your olfactory senses.

Lay back, close your eyes. Get some sleep.

You'll feel better about it in the morning. Trust me.

But But (rant rant whine) But!...

Ahhhhh... mmmm Hennessy!

That's so goooood!

Thanks dood!

Most airlines NEVER say 'NO'...they simply say 'no' to use a saver miles. The sad reality is that while the airlines want us to believe that Saver awards are 'discount' and Standard awards are, well, 'standard', they go out of their way to market Saver awards as 'standard', so that we end up perceiving Standard awards to actually be 'premium' or 'double'.

I have NEVER booked a Standard or double mile award and I've easily burned close to 50 international J and F itins, so the Saver awards are indeed out there.

Rigid dates, rigid itineraries and routings, rigid expectations and lack of patience and perseverance are the only things keeping most of us from utilizing Saver awards.

Aaahhhh...but FF programs were never intended to be logical in that sense. I'm serious.

The programs were founded in the early 1980's. The target audience at that time was business travelers - much moreso than today. Airlines know that most business travelers are allowed to pick which airline they fly within reason. They also know that most business travelers cannot ethically accept a straight cash kickback. Hence the loyalty programs with a fake currency that is very detached from cash.

It became culturally and ethically acceptable for business travelers to keep their miles, whereas had they been hard-linked to the fare paid, that wouldn't have happened. The result was that biz travelers had every incentive to stick with your airline, because the rewards were essentially "free" - and quite lucrative.

For leisure travelers, as we all know, no miles are free: their cost is baked in to anything you buy that generates miles whether it be flights, flowers, or a regular credit card purchase. But it's the business travelers that got this whole thing rolling, and for that to happen the programs had to stay as far detached from something that looked like a "kickback" as possible.

The people who thought this up 25 years ago were pure marketing geniuses. (I mean that in a good way - it's been a very nice ride for people like us who became fans of the programs whether through biz or leisure travel.)

But they already do. For example, LH M&M or BD DC gives 300% mileage for F or 200% for C. Also, UA Global Service is revenue based. And soon SQ PPS will be one too.