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wormword has been blasting everybody who participated in the goldpoints promotion. he has even gone to the extent of starting another fake thread just so that he can continue his relentless and unceasing contempt -- as if all of his previous and numerous postings on EVERY single goldpoint thread were not enough. what is wrong with this person? why does he keep insist on reading the goldpoint threads and then spew venom? can he not just ignore it? he's been saying the same thing over and over and over. argh! must have lots of idle time. wormword, are you gainfully employed?
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I guess it would be nuts not to take advantage if you define everything by whether or not advantage can be taken. I see the world differently from that. Not all advantage should be taken. A personal sense of fairness should guide participation in anything, frequency programs, promotions, whatever. We can argue different versions of fairness forever and I doubt we'll agree. No worries. At least people should be looking at the fallout from over working programs and promotions. As you mention LatinPass, look at the mutations that went on their for them to cope, and look how some people howled like stuck pigs at the injustice of it all (Dhacker I know you were not a howler). No matter what you think of taking advantage, it is UNGRACIOUS to then get petulant and demanding at the slightest glitch or adjustment. That is despicable behavior...I will take advantage of you , no holds barred, but hey, you treat me like a wonderful customer (when in fact you're a net revenue drain and most likely always will be.
You can fantasize all day but the million goldpointers cost somebody money, big time, they aren't customers, they are advantage takers who should be patient and polite as they do their screwing. |
it wasn't a 'fake' thread. it was started to point out the self congratulatory, arrogant, impatient, ungracious behavior of the gougers. Ignore away, I am not asking you to pay attention, I will continue to state my opinion independently of your attentions. If I see something contemptuous or despicable I will speak up. You do as you please, just as I will.
and if I say the same thing over and over, what is it that all those starting yet another goldpoints thread are doing? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't seem to be nearly as prolific a poster as most people on FT, I have a narrow focus and plenty of other things to do [This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 02-19-2002).] |
Thanks for the support, wormword, however, while I try not to howl, I have been known to get upset. I posted the Carlson motto in a derogatory manner the begining of the horror thread when the negative discount adjustment posted before original points. That would upset many people, whether or not it had anything to do with one of these big mileage bonanzas.
All my points posted in the end and I think the all the belly-aching helped to light a fire under someone's butt. The problem I have with the fair-play argument is that I truly don't see how you can tell whether or not a program has done its math homework before launching a promotion. Is it unfair to take KLM up on their matching offer if you have millions of points for them to match? Is it unfair to buy hundreds of boxes of Kelloggs waffles at Sams? I don't think so. It certainly makes Sam's Club happy. Wormword, I think you've gone at least a little bit overboard in trying to make evil-doers out of people who are simply playing the game by the rules (maybe I've been listening to too many Bush speeches lately!). You are trying to deny human nature. Its no different than when a airline charges a businessman $1500 for a last minute trip or when a hotel triples their rate for a special event. This is distinctly different from breaking the rules (e.g. using one FF card for two people or selling and trading miles and upgrade certs). While these activites have uncertainties and gray areas too, they are more problematic from a moral standpoint than simply buying alot of discounted miles, IMHO. I wish all the mileage police would consider giving it a rest for a while. I suspect very few of us have a completely clean record. Please see my comments in the idiot thread to see how easy it is to find fault with others' behavior. I also wish everyone would stop starting new GoldPoints threads. The existing topics are more than adequate. [This message has been edited by dhacker (edited 02-19-2002).] |
Wormwood, I didn't want to write something that could have been misinterpreted as a personal attack which is why I edited out the comment about your logic being addled.
However, you again display faulty logic. According to your above post you believed the goldpoints promo to be a mistake. Yet you chose to take advantage of that mistake albeit on a small scale. Nevertheless, you were taking advantage of what you believed to be someone's mistake, something I try not to do and consider completely unethical. I would say that would make you far LESS ethical than allot of the people who participated in the promotion who took the promotion to be what it was billed to be, a legitimate promo and not a mistake. Some of these people even sought confirmation of that fact from both goldpoints and valuemags and got it prior to the termination of the promo. If it was a mistake then someone taking advantage of that mistake at the $50 level or the $50,000 level is, ethically speaking, committing the same abuse. Put another way, someone pocketing erroneous change of $5 that should have been only $1 is committing the same moral crime of stealing that someone running off with millions is. They are both stealing. If someone is "given" the $5 in what they have been led to believe is a well advertised promotion they are not morally at any fault, the person who believes that despite the advertised promo that getting the $5 is taking advantage of a mistake is essentially stealing. The latter is basically what you did. Perhaps you should post your experience in that other self righteous and misplaced buzz thread "You knew it was wrong, but..." So please get off your high horse. By your own standards you have shown yourself to be less ethical than most people who participated in the promo. |
I just disagree. the point is the scale. I bought magazines I wanted to buy. Others bought thousands of magazines they planned on putting in the dumpster.
It is fairness not logic. fairness not logic |
Dhacker,
I agree it is tough to find the line on fairness. But I stand by the idea that some are over the line. For example, participating in LatinPass x10 would be unfair. So, buying dozens of copies of the same magazine to get points would be unfair. I don't expect you to agree necessarily but that's how I see it. This is of course in addition to the damage done over time by decimating any offer that comes along. It reduces opportunities, fairly taken, for everyone. |
Unless there is some objective (logical) criteria that defines what is fair and what isn't for each of us, fairness doesn't mean much. Without the anchor that logic lends, the definition of fairness can be changed to suit our needs of the moment. Repeating "fairness not logic", apart from not making any sense, certainly doesn't make a faulty definition (of what is and isn't fair) less faulty/or logical.
Nevertheless you have finally made your logic(basis for your definition of fairness) clear and we do indeed disagree. You believe it is OK to act unethically as long as you do so on a small scale. I do not. Unlike yourself I did not see the promo as a mistake, had I done I doubt I would have participated. You clearly saw it as a mistake, nonetheless you participated and acted in an unethical way according to your own definition of unethical conduct. FWIW none of the mags I ordered are destined for the dumpster (still have yet to receive any of them) a few were bought for myself, friends, and family but the large bulk were bought for my local libraries after asking which mags they wanted (no tax deduction either due to the AMT). If I had not already promised the libraries the mags and faxed the agreement not to cancel in to valuemags I would have probably cancelled my orders and forfeited the goldpoints given all the confusion and given that I had my entire travel budget for 2002 at stake. However I was not about to shell out thousands of dollars to make my commitments to the libraries good due to goldpoints "possible" mistake. If they did infact make a mistake then let them live with the consequences (which they seem to be doing fairly admirably and I say this while I am still missing over a million goldpoints from orders placed almost 2 months ago now) or do you also advocate that others should pay for goldpoints mistakes as well? Incidentally I would like to say that I respect the conviction with which you state your position, though I think the position itself is faulty and delusionally self righteous, and also commend your sincere effort at trying to be ethical, even if I think that by your own definition you are acting unethically, and wish that more people in society in general would make a similar effort so please don't take my words as anything other those of civil and respectful debate. Having said that I don't know that Milesbuzz is the appropriate forum for such ethical evangelizing though these days it seems anything, well almost anything, goes (not knocking the moderators who thankfully cull the worst excesses from the threads in Milesbuzz). |
Wormwood:You must be a riot at cocktail parties.
[This message has been edited by Neal (edited 02-20-2002).] |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wormwood: Well, if Pete is headed out I'll drop by with a little sanctimony. Golpoints has to be the best case yet of the invasion of the greedbags into FT. On a much smaller scale check out the threads on the Automall where it gave 62000 Hilton points instead of 500. There are folks over there claiming it's their divine right to these points. In the case of Goldpoints, those who ordered before changes were made are of course entitled your points even if you were unfair to the companies involved if you ordered millions of points worth. But the general attitude is of small, impatient minds who are self deluded into thinking they are 'important customers' You're gougers that true capitalists have to cover with real customers who end up paying for you, just like shoplifters (not in the legal sense, the moral sense) [This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 02-19-2002).]</font> Now, if someone had made numerous accounts to get around that limitation, I'd say THAT was wrong. But that wasn't the case. They made the rules and we operated by those rules. As far as people ordering after the promotion was pulled, Valuemags did state that the promotion would run until December 31st. Would you consider it "unfair" that they pulled it? Arguments that would equate the behavior of those that purchased lots of magazines to someone who buys up all the items at a sale have no bearing in reality. GoldPoints are not a finite, tangible, resource. My purchase does not mean anyone else would be out their points. Finally, if GoldPoints were truly in trouble, nothing would've prevented them from cancelling the orders and saying it was all an unauthorized mistake. There might have been lawsuits, and yes it would've been "unfair", but they still could've done it. Now, Wormwood, you participated in the Valuemags promotion but nevertheless you object to those who participated to a greater degree? By your logic, if I were to steal something relatlively valueless, it's ok, but if I were to steal something more valuable, I'm wrong to do so. I must stridently disagree with you. If this were a mistake I'd have been happy to hand my points back and cancel my order, but it wasn't. IMHO what's unethical is unethical, the scale does not matter. [Edited to be more civil] [This message has been edited by kanebear (edited 02-20-2002).] |
i'm done being civil.
wormwood, you are a hypocrite for participating in the goldpoints promo and then REAMING everyone else for doing it; i don't care if you bought one magazine. and keep whining about 'fairness'. karl marx had some great things to say about that. so did joseph stalin. that's all for now; my opinions and logic on this matter are well known. |
Second time today I have closed a Goldpoints thread that is heading toward a flame war. I will not allow any flaming in one of the two forums I moderate. eom
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