I am dubious that the slope is that slippery, that the federal government is that interested in or capable of doing much with a national ID, or that the resolve of the citizens of the United States would become weak enough that an ID would become an instrument of broad infringements of civil liberties.

At the same time, however, I am equally skeptical of the ability of the government to use an ID program as a preventitive against terrorism. Their efforts at intelligence, immigration control and domestic security (if only for the restricted airspace within Washington, DC) do not provide any sense of comfort as to the efficacy of any National function.

TO JS !!!!

Please think before you write! You speak like Hitler himself! You want Nobbi out of your country just because he was telling his opinion!That is exactly the same what Hitler has done and what the Americans have done with the Indians!And your country has also done many wrong things (Vietnam etc.)
Pleasse don�t forget that this is a flyer forum and not a political forum.

Tim

Since it escaped you that I had posed a rhetorical question and not an extradition command, I'll repeat my statement with the important words in bold:

"Why don't YOU go BACK to Germany if you think it's so great over there, instead of trashing the U.S. Constitution!"


I have no problem with people stating their opinions. I would never want to censor someone. But if I disagree, I will state my opinion.

I, too, am skeptical of a national ID program, wondering just how it improves upon the 50 state driver's licenses it would replace as your "papiers" when you travel; OTOH, I find it TOTALLY offensive for others to criticize (as in the critical comment to Nobby, above) based on what other countries do. It is RUDE if nothing else.

Our system including our constitution(which I support and defend) is pretty good, BUT it's only one way of doing things. Those that hold it up as immutable seem to fail to recognize it was written in an age when today's problems were undreamt of. That said, this whole thing of a Federal ID system being "unconstitutional" is a canard: #1, plenty which was "unconstitutional" in 1933, including Social Security and a minimum wage, are today considered "constitutional", as the court changes and somehow accomodates societal need. And #2: Let's figure out what it would take to REALLY improve security in ways that are meaningful, and THEN discuss whether a replacement ID is the best idea. Nobody has yet convinced me that a federal ID is better than my CA driver's license (although I remember when NY DLs had NO picture.... perhaps this is still the story somewhere). Finally, #3: It is revealing that we as a society see fit to let this scare us into "founding fathers" arguments: perhaps a more rational debate would be served merely by focusing on what it would take to assure our security, AND let us maintain our freedom AS WE practice it today.

Just one person's opinion.

I'm not trashing the Constitution. I said nothing about whether or not Germany or the US is/are great.

I don't see what Hitler has to do with it.

And I would have gotten gassed along with my Jewish brethren due to a pink triangle rather than a Star of David.

Shalom!

[This message has been edited by Nobbi (edited 09-23-2001).]

I think the whole talk of having national IDs is a moot point. These terrorists are reported to be experts at faking identification documents or stealing identities anyway. So how is another official document going safeguard the public?

If you don't think a Social Security number is a national ID, why is it on nearly everything? My medical insurance bills and records, my pharmacy card, my teacher's certificate, my ID badge to get into my school (where all the kids can read the number) my retired military paperwork, my bank account, my investment accounts, my other insurance papers etc?

If I wish to make a purchase at a base exchange and use a check, my checks have to have my SS# on the face under my name. Printed, not written in.

Every student in a public school in Texas is required to have a Social Security # is order to register and all data is tied to that #.

I'm sure I can think of more examples given enough time.



[This message has been edited by texana (edited 09-23-2001).]

Unlike national ids, anybody with your social security id can cause financial havoc as it can be manipulated to apply and run up credit cards. More security measures would need to be implemented and as you have noticed, less and less people opt out to have their social security number on their drivers license. Hmm, showing your home address and social security number to a stranger like a store clerk.

------------------
"Fly me to the moon and let me earn alot of miles."

The constitution is a guideline for how to run a country that I am frequently a guest in. I gave all my detils to a guy at the INSpass office a while ago. Did I feel i gave up any freedom. No.

You're probably OK until they implement national ID cards to track our every move.

They - meaning the federal goverment - why would they care what moves you were making - those with nothing to hide lose nothing in a free society. Those who have the most to lose are those who wish to damage that society.

Actually, most countries in western Europe have far greater protections for personal privacy than we enjoy in the US. Further, the average European tends to be far aware of personal privacy issues than the average American.

I am not taking side. but isn't my state issued driver license just another form of national ID. it is recognized nationally. I don't think it would make any difference if the ID is issued by State or Federal. I am also required to show ID when asked by authorities. Police also can search your car any time he feels like (in a recent supreme court ruling, a policeman only has to prove reasonable suspision. he only has to say he smells marijuana). Trust me, when a cop ask your permission to search your car, you can not refuse. If you do, that is reasonable suspision to search your car.

My point is, there is no point arguing on a national ID system, we already have it. The sad thing is many don't realize we have already lost much of personal freedom.

This is dangerous thinking..My question would be: "if they (the gov't) don't care what moves I'm making, why do they even need to know??? "Those who have nothing to hide, have nothing to lose"? Cummon! That's ridiculous. Would you agree with random drug searches, pat downs on the street, and polygraph tests at every job interview, even if you had nothing to hide.
The problem comes later when originally good-intentions become applied to more and more things. (don't argue that this does not happen, it always does in every country).
For example, here in arizona the state attorney general and the county prosecutor have just revived a special task force to deal with hate crimes, which is fine (although I've never understood the difference in murdering a guy cause of his race vs. murdering him to steal his wallet). As part of this task force, a special hotline as been set up for citizens to call in and report "suspicous" people. From the attorney general's own lips: (I paraphrase from memory) "we don't care if they've done anything yet, if they have attitudes or use epitats (sp?) we want to hear from you. WE JUST WANT TO KNOW WHO TO KEEP AN EYE ON". (emphasis added). Now, they are not asking for reports on crime or possible crime, they also want reports on people with undesireable opinions. Now this is all fine and good, but imagine 50 years in the future at how this type of monitoring can get all out of whack as we lose touch with the role of government. What will be an undesireable political viewpoint 50 years from now? Maybe yours. In the last 10 years or so, I have seen with my own eyes how law abiding gun owners have increasingly, and incrementally been somehow turned into violence loving, social liabilities, even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary, and it continues to this day. That's just one example. There are a lot of things to think about on this issue. I would urge everyone to look at history to teach us how these things play out, both in this country and others. There are lessons to be learned. Ok, that's my two cents....thanks

Yeh you sure did! And almost 10 million Jews were executed because they didn't have one.

I think this is a great argument: against ID cards.

This is a typical totalitarian argument. "If you agree with us, you have nothing to worry about.."

Anytime a government is given that kind of power by its people, its people have finally been intellectually and socially sterilized.

Between your Social Security number and the electronic trail you leave via credit cards, anyone who wants to can "track your every move" already.

Obviously this national-ID-card thing brings the conspiracy theorists out of the woodwork, but if you have a Social Security card, a US passport and a driver's license.. and you're therefore in THREE massive databases... what's the problem with a national ID? It's not like carrying any of the foregoing infringes on personal liberties. I just don't see it.