I completely disagree with this. I can easily afford coach tickets to anywhere on the planet. I can also afford business class tickets to almost anywhere on the planet. But an international F ticket is out of my price range. When I fly in international F, I'm receiving something that costs far, far more than I would ever pay. In a sense, it is "priceless," because I would never pay what it costs.

That makes international F the best value by far, especially since it doesn't cost that much more than international C (which I might actually pay for)!

You say that like it's a bad thing. Except when I hit a bad neighbor or a bad seat, I like flying.

That's a fair, but not not universally useful approach: aside from the argument about convertability, take the example of "overpriced" coach flights. You may argue that the cash value of miles isn't equal to the J/F fare, but if you need to go from point A to point B, and the cheapest coach fare is more than you can afford... but you can go on miles, well, it's pretty clear that the value of the miles are greater than "the most you could afford," because the most you could afford wouldn't get you there, and the miles will.

Is the cash vaule at that point "the most you can afford + 1" or "the actual price of the ticket"? Well, I'd argue for the latter, since that's the money you don't have that you'd have to scrape up to get there.

Similarly, saying that "a J award is worth what you would pay for it as a fare" may be technically correct to an economist (or not, I haven't a clue) but if you can't get a J award or an F award at a price you would pay, it's an individual irrelevancy.

This argument goes on and on and will never end.

Apparently, some of us who are lucky enough to generate enough points/miles the get access to international First Class seats cannot be happy with that. We also want others to acknowledge how clever we are and what incredible value we are getting!

And some of those who are not in that fortunate position feel the need to tell them that they are really, in fact, not getting that great a deal.

The only thing I can guarantee you is that neither of those two groups care what the other thinks or is even listening. If the person sitting up front paid cash and, because of that, could not feed his family, when then you have a problem. I couldn't care less how people spend points - I just want to learn good strategies. And if one doesn't make sense to me, I have no desire to convince the poster that he or she is wrong!

End of rant.

There is no right or wrong answer as to whether it's better to pay 50,000 miles for a coach flight or 150,000 for first class. Likewise, there's no right or wrong answer about whether it's better to pay $500 or $20,000 for those tickets, or $50 or $5000 for a suit, or $30 or $6000 for a handbag. If you pay more, you get more; each individual gets to decide whether the difference in what you get is worth the difference in price; reasonable people can disagree about what's better for them.

There are other decisions, however, that don't work that way. If you can buy the same thing for $100 or for $1000, and it really is the same except for the price, a rational person has to pick the $100 price; I can tell you that choosing to pay $1000 is just a mistake, without having to find out how much you like Blue Label or how much you hate sleeping standing up. If people ask for help in comparing options, and they are making a mistake about a decision like that, but where the dominance of one option is less easy to see, it should be pointed out to them.

People on the pro-coach side of this little debate may say outright irrational things now and then, but absolutely irrational arguments make up a sizable fraction of the pro-first discussion. It's fine to pay more to get something you actually like more, if you want to; but it's not rational to choose a Motel 6 in Cleveland over the Westin Tokyo just because, for some reason, the rack rate at the Motel 6 is higher.

IMHO.

I am with the OP. I don't fly for business, so I don't rack up miles that fast in the first place. Award flights are few and far between for me as it is.

I have never flown first class, so I am not faced with not knowing what I am missing.

Again, if the customer is paying his bills, feeding his family and fulfilling normal obligations AND gets a kick out of feeling that he not only gets to fly First of Business but also gets value, who cares?

Many years ago, a consultant told us a story about a board room with people sitting on each far end of a long table. Hung from the ceiling was an apple. The people on one side saw a magnificent, shiny ripe apple. The people on the other side could see a worm crawling out on their side. One side said it was beautiful and the other said it was disgusting.

Who's right? Depends on your view of the apple!

Well... I get my miles "free" as I fly for work and get paid for it. So, I do already have lounge access (what I value most from having status) on *A and SkyTeam, which basically covers most of my flights. I always fly in Economy, but have been lucky enough to have been upgraded to Business twice, once for intra-Europe (only 2 hours!) and once for trans-Pacific.

Personally I guess I'd go for Economy, then get myself a bulkhead/exit row seat, and pray that I get an op-up to Business! :P I usually get a bulkhead/exit row seat on my flights anyway, or at least aisle, so I guess I'm quite lucky most of the time.

Flying across the atlantic if I was offered an upgrade for $250-300 I would seriously consider taking it. If I was offered the same amount to take a downgrade I would seriously consider refusing it. For > $500 I wouldn't buy/refuse it in a heartbeat.

Of course airlines don't sell business class TATL seats for < $500 -- except if you're buying them with points. And they certainly don't sell first class tickets to Asia for $700 which is about what the difference in points is worth. So if I'm ever going to fly first class for a big vacation trip that'll be how.

BRAVO!^

My DW was a white knucke flyer, hated it.

And then last year I became an EXP and upgraded the two of us along with our darlin children on a flight from CLT-DFW-FRA.

As we were eating breakfast in F somewhere over the American Southeast she leaned over and kissed me on the cheek. She did it again in J as we ate dinner on the TATL seg. Since then she has flown 4 more TATL segs in J.

She has come to realize that she wasn't scared of flying but was really clastrophobic in Y. Now she likes to fly and is very tolerent of my obsession with status and miles.

Exactly, this is how you should assign the true value of the miles.

Though I should mention I got the arithmetic all wrong. I was saying I would be willing to pay about $300 *one-way* for an upgrade, especially on a red-eye. The difference in airline points required is actually about $500 *return*. So it's actually a great deal even by my own measure.

This is valuing the points at 1c/mile but in fact I rarely see $500 TATL tickets any more so they're actually worth slightly more. Still I think they're under my target.

There is another way to look at it. I would *never* pay $7k-$10k for a business or first class ticket. But I do want to experience it sometime in my life. So I'm being offered it for $1000-$1400 that's as good a deal as I'm gong to see anywhere -- it's take it or leave it. I may only do it once in my life and then go back to economy (but I doubt it but I'm definitely going to try it once.

I do thank you for not competing with us for those flights in C.

1
As one who has done over 100 trips to Asia for my family and friends this is not correct, but I do not want to elaborate.
2
I know the cost of the economy ticket is over 1700$. Would you pay that much in miles (by the US air 250% promo) and go in F for $1100? I would and did. 160k @ 0.7 cpm = 960$ plus taxes 135$ = 1100$ for LH F.
My usual cost of miles is 1.5c, so I would happily pay 1900 for Biz while Y is 1700. My lasting regret is not buying $30-40k up front in 1 CP account. That would have taken care of all our travel for 2-3 years in F!

True, but in the example I gave above, the Honda (Y) was 25k, the MB (F) was 15k!
Would you also consider a MB for 25k if both were on sale at that price?
When I value my miles I use 1.5c each. If I can go in Y for 1800$ cash or C in 120k miles, I always choose C. You might choose Y in miles at 80k saving about 600$ for a flight of 30 hours. or 20$ an hour for your comfort. Going IAD-FRA-BLR/SIN-FRA-IAD in Y is torture for an adult. in C that is 150$ to upgrade each leg of over 8 hours each.

I can also get to work the next day and that is worth value in my remaining leave

No. Anyone who reads FT in the US or EU can very easily maximize their points with minimal effort. The extra points can be spent anyway you choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevens397
Apparently, some of us who are lucky enough to generate enough points/miles the get access to international First Class seats cannot be happy with that.
No. Anyone who reads FT in the US or EU can very easily maximize their points with minimal effort. The extra points can be spent anyway you choose.
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Apparently you missed that I was saying it totally tongue-in-cheek. What I meant was that we should enjoy it and not worry about convincing anyone that we're right - for us at least!