using miles for coach vs business or 1st?
 

Maybe I'm missing something here but I see regualr comments about how people wouldn't use their miles for an international coach ticket, prefering to use them only for higher class seats, and I don't understand why?

Clearly those seats would be more comfortable but isn't there a higher rate of return with the lower cost seats?

For the (miles) cost of a 1st class seat, I can get 2 seats in economy. Sure, you get a bigger seat and for the duration of the flight, you may be a bit more comfortable but is it really worth it? I hate flying as much if not more than anyone else but I really don't see the value of burning a ticket for a -tiny- amount of added comfort. 9 hrs in a tube is sucks no matter how you slice it

Is this all there is to it or am I missing a bigger picture here?

Yes, you are.

And that would be?

The comfort, amenities and services associated with flying transatlantic in business or first class add much more than a "tiny" amount to my enjoyment of the trip. It's not just the seat, the entire experience is fundamentally different. There is at least triple the personal and storage space, often much more. The seat makes into a fully flat bed. There are fast-track security lines, lounge access at both ends of each segment, availability of food and drink at the times I want to have them, pyjamas so that I don't have to carry my own or sleep in my street clothes, etc.

This said, if you don't value those things, if you wouldn't pay for them with money, there's nothing wrong with redeeming for economy class tickets.

Yes, you are indeed missing a bigger picture. Check out my Trip Reports below (or any other SQ-LH-CX-LX First Class Trip Reports in the TR forum) and see if that looks like a "tiny added amount of comfort" or that it "sucks". :D:rolleyes:

you obviously haven't flown up front. :p On a 12+ hour flight to Asia or Australia sitting in coach would be a fate only marginally better than death for me.

Sitting in international C or F is an infinitely better experience. Not only in the air but also on the ground. Lounge access is a very nice perk. Free food and drink. Much more comfortable seating areas. And more.

And then onboard you get LOTS more personal space. On most lines I fly you also get a seat that turns into a flat bed so you can actually get some sleep. I am totally unable to sleep in a seated position. Plus there is a larger personal screen and better food. And (usually) more attentive service. Fewer people sharing a lavatory. And more.

A ticket in C on the routes I usually fly costs in the region of $7000+ these days if you were to pay for the ticket. A coach seat would cost about $1200. In F you are looking at $12K+ and upwards to $20K depending on the airline. Using Aeroplan miles we are talking 120K for F class or 100K for C. I think a coach seat is something like 60K. That small premium in miles is definitely worth it.

For a domestic flight that is not very long in duration it doesn't make sense to me to use miles for an award seat at all. I am all about cashing in on premium seats on long-haul international flights. I know a lot of people prefer to buy an upgradable coach seat and then use miles to upgrade. That is something I definitely need to learn more about one of these days as I think that could potentially be an even better use of miles.

But I agree with the note above that if you do not value these things it is not worth it for YOU. For me it is totally worth it. The problem is that once you fly up front it is virtually impossible to go back again and you will do just about anything to get back to the front. But if you are able to tolerate coach or can sleep in those conditions then using your miles for two trips instead of one is likely a better deal for you.

That would be spot on.

I certainly don't mean to be critical of people who do value these things - if you do, it's a great way to get a better seat, but for myself, it's not at all enticing. The only thing that would make a flight more tolerable to me personally is a way to make it faster

It's not a little bit more comfortable, it's a lot more comfortable, and that's just the seat (which may even be a lie-flat allowing you to sleep). Add to that: much larger personal space; quieter environment (rarely any noisy children/babies; cabin farther from engines); better food; meal services that take longer to complete and thus helping the time pass; ability to work if you need to (can you really use a laptop in coach for any extended period?) priority check-in, baggage, boarding and lounge access (for those with no status), etc etc.

Taking for example a route I often fly, a coach ticket is 80K while a business ticket is 115-120K (varies by airline). So it's only a 50% permium, whereas the difference in price between Y and C is x3, if you were to purchase tickets. The additional 35-40K is well worth it to me for a 24-hour each-direction voyage. There's nothing like sleeping on a lie-flat on an 8-hour flight and then taking a hot shower in the lounge at FRA before continuing on.

I would not get an F ticket, that would be a waste to me because I perceive very little added value in F versus C, which will be especially true once all C has lie-flats.

I've been pondering whether this is still a good option, now that there's a significant co-pay that can mean as much as $1000 more out of pocket in addition to the miles. It's this additional expense versus earning EQM/RDM. Seems that I don't really need the EQM so much if I'm getting C awards anyway (that give the benefits of free bags, lounge access, priority, etc). And RDM are cheaply acquired through promotions so don't really need to be earned by flying on paid tickets...

You are posting on a forum where people fly a lot. It is not uncommon for those of us in this forum to be flying every week, sometimes several times a week. That being the case, biz and first make a big difference versus someone who takes a flight or two a year.

If you fall in the latter category, it probably makes more sense to get two coach tickets instead of a biz or first ticket. Lounge access, flat beds etc may be irrelevant for the once a year traveller, but most of us in this forum strive to figure out a way to get into biz or first on all our flights.

It's true that the difference is not tiny. It's pretty significant. That said, my own personal balancing of the values still comes out on the side of preferring to make two trips in Y vs. just one trip in J. For me, the tipping point would come when I have enough miles that redeemig J awards would not reduce the number of trips I could take. At that point, spending the extra miles on J is a no-brainer. Because I travel with my family of 4, I'm still a good ways off from a miles balance like that.

It does seem to me that some FTers tend to focus on the cents/mile (cpm) value of redeeming for int'l. J vs. Y, and as has been pointed out repeatedly on FT, this is false accounting unless you actually would pay the J price if you were spending cash. Still, I think focusing on the cpm value helps some people convince themselves that they're getting an outstanding return on the cost/effort of obtaining the miles.

And that's our case. We've flown once this year (6 segments, 2 were ~ 9 hrs) and the cost of the flights was a good 40-45% of the trip costs. While time, not cost, is the deciding factor on our ability to travel, we like the idea of being able to take a long weekend overseas on award miles. Doing that while having to pay out of pocket for a ticket just seems wasteful

Y award USA-Middle East: 80K; C award: 120K. That's a 50% premium for a C award.

Y paid: $1200; C paid: $3600. That's a 200% premium.

So no, it is not false accounting. I won't pay a 200% premuim but gladly pay a 50% premium.

Personally, I only buy first or business class seats with miles on direct flights of 5 or more hours. Anything shorter than that is a waste in my opinion.

As it has been said it all comes down to personal taste. I am one of the few on here who does not think its worth it to redeem for business or first tickets. I have also flown All Nippon business transpacific so I do have an idea of how good business can be but to me its just not worth it.

Also I will say that I think the opinions on here are wildly different than the general US population for two main reasons. They are abundance of miles and money. Most FT'ers have a ton of miles. They fly a lot and most seem to have more miles than they have time to spend flying. So why not use the miles for premium classes. They still have enough miles for other trips anyways.

Also to fly this much it cost a lot of money. If its your own dime you obviously must be pretty affluent. Even if its your employer's dime, chances are you make pretty good money for the employer to justify spending so much on your travel.

So if you have a lot of money chances are that buying the second ecnomy ticket is not a big deal. I ask would I rather use 50K miles in coach and $1000 to buy an HDTV or $1000 to buy a ticket and 50K miles to upgrade to business and live with my old TV. I choose the HDTV, but just about everybody on flyertalk need not worry with this since they can buy the ticket, use miles to upgrade and have plenty of money leftover to buy a HDTV anyways.

Its simple economics that the marginal utility of money goes down meaning it becomes worth less as you make more of it. I suspect that most on here make enough money that there is nothing great left to buy with it anyways. At least nothing better than a premium class seat.