using miles for coach vs business or 1st?
 

Maybe I'm missing something here but I see regualr comments about how people wouldn't use their miles for an international coach ticket, prefering to use them only for higher class seats, and I don't understand why?

Clearly those seats would be more comfortable but isn't there a higher rate of return with the lower cost seats?

For the (miles) cost of a 1st class seat, I can get 2 seats in economy. Sure, you get a bigger seat and for the duration of the flight, you may be a bit more comfortable but is it really worth it? I hate flying as much if not more than anyone else but I really don't see the value of burning a ticket for a -tiny- amount of added comfort. 9 hrs in a tube is sucks no matter how you slice it

Is this all there is to it or am I missing a bigger picture here?

Yes, you are.

And that would be?

The comfort, amenities and services associated with flying transatlantic in business or first class add much more than a "tiny" amount to my enjoyment of the trip. It's not just the seat, the entire experience is fundamentally different. There is at least triple the personal and storage space, often much more. The seat makes into a fully flat bed. There are fast-track security lines, lounge access at both ends of each segment, availability of food and drink at the times I want to have them, pyjamas so that I don't have to carry my own or sleep in my street clothes, etc.

This said, if you don't value those things, if you wouldn't pay for them with money, there's nothing wrong with redeeming for economy class tickets.

Yes, you are indeed missing a bigger picture. Check out my Trip Reports below (or any other SQ-LH-CX-LX First Class Trip Reports in the TR forum) and see if that looks like a "tiny added amount of comfort" or that it "sucks". :D:rolleyes:

you obviously haven't flown up front. :p On a 12+ hour flight to Asia or Australia sitting in coach would be a fate only marginally better than death for me.

Sitting in international C or F is an infinitely better experience. Not only in the air but also on the ground. Lounge access is a very nice perk. Free food and drink. Much more comfortable seating areas. And more.

And then onboard you get LOTS more personal space. On most lines I fly you also get a seat that turns into a flat bed so you can actually get some sleep. I am totally unable to sleep in a seated position. Plus there is a larger personal screen and better food. And (usually) more attentive service. Fewer people sharing a lavatory. And more.

A ticket in C on the routes I usually fly costs in the region of $7000+ these days if you were to pay for the ticket. A coach seat would cost about $1200. In F you are looking at $12K+ and upwards to $20K depending on the airline. Using Aeroplan miles we are talking 120K for F class or 100K for C. I think a coach seat is something like 60K. That small premium in miles is definitely worth it.

For a domestic flight that is not very long in duration it doesn't make sense to me to use miles for an award seat at all. I am all about cashing in on premium seats on long-haul international flights. I know a lot of people prefer to buy an upgradable coach seat and then use miles to upgrade. That is something I definitely need to learn more about one of these days as I think that could potentially be an even better use of miles.

But I agree with the note above that if you do not value these things it is not worth it for YOU. For me it is totally worth it. The problem is that once you fly up front it is virtually impossible to go back again and you will do just about anything to get back to the front. But if you are able to tolerate coach or can sleep in those conditions then using your miles for two trips instead of one is likely a better deal for you.

That would be spot on.

I certainly don't mean to be critical of people who do value these things - if you do, it's a great way to get a better seat, but for myself, it's not at all enticing. The only thing that would make a flight more tolerable to me personally is a way to make it faster

It's not a little bit more comfortable, it's a lot more comfortable, and that's just the seat (which may even be a lie-flat allowing you to sleep). Add to that: much larger personal space; quieter environment (rarely any noisy children/babies; cabin farther from engines); better food; meal services that take longer to complete and thus helping the time pass; ability to work if you need to (can you really use a laptop in coach for any extended period?) priority check-in, baggage, boarding and lounge access (for those with no status), etc etc.

Taking for example a route I often fly, a coach ticket is 80K while a business ticket is 115-120K (varies by airline). So it's only a 50% permium, whereas the difference in price between Y and C is x3, if you were to purchase tickets. The additional 35-40K is well worth it to me for a 24-hour each-direction voyage. There's nothing like sleeping on a lie-flat on an 8-hour flight and then taking a hot shower in the lounge at FRA before continuing on.

I would not get an F ticket, that would be a waste to me because I perceive very little added value in F versus C, which will be especially true once all C has lie-flats.

I've been pondering whether this is still a good option, now that there's a significant co-pay that can mean as much as $1000 more out of pocket in addition to the miles. It's this additional expense versus earning EQM/RDM. Seems that I don't really need the EQM so much if I'm getting C awards anyway (that give the benefits of free bags, lounge access, priority, etc). And RDM are cheaply acquired through promotions so don't really need to be earned by flying on paid tickets...

You are posting on a forum where people fly a lot. It is not uncommon for those of us in this forum to be flying every week, sometimes several times a week. That being the case, biz and first make a big difference versus someone who takes a flight or two a year.

If you fall in the latter category, it probably makes more sense to get two coach tickets instead of a biz or first ticket. Lounge access, flat beds etc may be irrelevant for the once a year traveller, but most of us in this forum strive to figure out a way to get into biz or first on all our flights.

It's true that the difference is not tiny. It's pretty significant. That said, my own personal balancing of the values still comes out on the side of preferring to make two trips in Y vs. just one trip in J. For me, the tipping point would come when I have enough miles that redeemig J awards would not reduce the number of trips I could take. At that point, spending the extra miles on J is a no-brainer. Because I travel with my family of 4, I'm still a good ways off from a miles balance like that.

It does seem to me that some FTers tend to focus on the cents/mile (cpm) value of redeeming for int'l. J vs. Y, and as has been pointed out repeatedly on FT, this is false accounting unless you actually would pay the J price if you were spending cash. Still, I think focusing on the cpm value helps some people convince themselves that they're getting an outstanding return on the cost/effort of obtaining the miles.

And that's our case. We've flown once this year (6 segments, 2 were ~ 9 hrs) and the cost of the flights was a good 40-45% of the trip costs. While time, not cost, is the deciding factor on our ability to travel, we like the idea of being able to take a long weekend overseas on award miles. Doing that while having to pay out of pocket for a ticket just seems wasteful

Y award USA-Middle East: 80K; C award: 120K. That's a 50% premium for a C award.

Y paid: $1200; C paid: $3600. That's a 200% premium.

So no, it is not false accounting. I won't pay a 200% premuim but gladly pay a 50% premium.

Personally, I only buy first or business class seats with miles on direct flights of 5 or more hours. Anything shorter than that is a waste in my opinion.

As it has been said it all comes down to personal taste. I am one of the few on here who does not think its worth it to redeem for business or first tickets. I have also flown All Nippon business transpacific so I do have an idea of how good business can be but to me its just not worth it.

Also I will say that I think the opinions on here are wildly different than the general US population for two main reasons. They are abundance of miles and money. Most FT'ers have a ton of miles. They fly a lot and most seem to have more miles than they have time to spend flying. So why not use the miles for premium classes. They still have enough miles for other trips anyways.

Also to fly this much it cost a lot of money. If its your own dime you obviously must be pretty affluent. Even if its your employer's dime, chances are you make pretty good money for the employer to justify spending so much on your travel.

So if you have a lot of money chances are that buying the second ecnomy ticket is not a big deal. I ask would I rather use 50K miles in coach and $1000 to buy an HDTV or $1000 to buy a ticket and 50K miles to upgrade to business and live with my old TV. I choose the HDTV, but just about everybody on flyertalk need not worry with this since they can buy the ticket, use miles to upgrade and have plenty of money leftover to buy a HDTV anyways.

Its simple economics that the marginal utility of money goes down meaning it becomes worth less as you make more of it. I suspect that most on here make enough money that there is nothing great left to buy with it anyways. At least nothing better than a premium class seat.

As someone new to all this, I'm not sure I agree with that. I've yet to earn a FF point so far, but have bought points through the US Airways double points deal and redeemed them for a UK/Australia first class flight, having not flown in anything other than economy for more than 20 years. So I know exactly how much my miles cost and how much the flight cost (£1,692 inc buying the miles and taxes/fees). Economy would have been £900 - £1,200 depending on the airline (for an airline I'd be happy to fly with), business maybe £2,800 (nearly £4,000 on Virgin, BA or Qantas), first £4,200 - £5,600.

Would I have paid £2,800 or more? No. But under £1,700 for first class. Absolutely. In fact I am still pinching myself.

While the previous posters all make good points, this is all a (relatively) simple exercise in opportunity cost. Put simply, using your miles for a flight in J or F rather than Y means that you must forgo the other possible uses of the miles. As a very, very simple example:

Imagine you will be taking two of the exact same flight in the near future (I'm using this example rather than flying with a companion because it's likely you'll want to be in the same cabin as your partner on the same flight - hopefully). You have 100,000 FF miles in your account, a Y flight costs either $1,000 or 50k miles and a J flight costs either $3,000 or 100,000 miles. According to some of the rationale above, you should most certainly take the J flight and then purchase the other ticket in coach, since the 100,000 miles equate to a value of $3,000 while two coach tickets would only be $2,000. However, this approach misses the fact that if you use miles for the first flight, you must purchase the second flight in cash. Only if your marginal value of flying in J is higher than the cost to you of the foregone flight ($1,000) would you use the miles to upgrade.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but the point is that if the value to you of flying in a higher class is very small (i.e., what you would actually pay for it), then it may make more sense to use those miles for a coach flight. Or, as other posters have said, if the opportunity cost of your miles is very low (as in having 10,000,000 miles in your account), then you would certainly use them for the J flight. In other words, it all depends on the traveler and his/her actual situation.

I guess "it depends on the individual" is certainly the true answer to this question.

Despite what others have written here I am not a person who flies all the time or has millions of miles sitting in my account. I only fly a couple of times a year, but I accumulate miles using credit cards mainly (those signing bonuses are very lucrative). Even though I fly infrequently the trips I take tend to be to the other side of the world. And for me a day in the air in comfort is definitely something worth spending miles on... Since I take a trip that uses all of my vacation time having miles left over to take another flight doesn't really do me much good.

I posted this in another similar topic in this forum, so sorry for the somewhat double post, but can somebody explain to me the differences between BA First & Business (or really any Business & First on long-haul international)?

I'm going to have a BA companion cert by the end of this billing cycle and I'm planning on using it to go to Europe Zone 2 or 3 from USA. The premium is 50% between Business & First. So, what does that 50% (another 60k - 80k miles) REALLY gain me over Business??

Thanks a lot!

domestic in coach, J/F in international when possible
 

I'm relatively new to the game and my family is currently in a less-travel mode. Both DH and I work full time. How many vacations can I possibly take in a year (especially after taking time off for kids' activities/ doctor visits etc.)? We can do short breaks in the US without dipping into vacation time. These flights are typically coach, paid out of pocket or redeeming Delta miles. I recently booked flights to Calgary from the midwestern US @ 40,000 DL miles/ticket. Yes, not ideal, I know. Two years back, I booked flights to Vancouver at 19000 NW miles/ticket (NW discount code). Bottom line, this time around, I was booking just one month out and this is high season in the Canadian rockies. Lowest fare available was over $800/ticket. AA/CO/United did not have ANY availability at any tier for/around the dates I wanted. So I burned the Delta miles. We do this on short/domestic/US-Canada flights.

We also save up for one long vacation per year. Some years, this long trip (2-3 weeks) has to be India. I don't use miles for India trips for two reasons:
(1) It's almost impossible to find award flights for/around dates we want, and
(2) We would go to India "anyway", whether or not we get award flights. At times, the cost has been $1700/coach ticket but we still do it. I want to use hard earned miles for experiences we would otherwise not get/not spend on.

So yes, I am saving up for a J trip to Japan or Australia for the whole family. My daughter is a big fan of disneyland. We've been to Florida and California. If I HAVE to do it again (which I want to, for my kid), I might as well visit Japan, see the country (and other short hops in Asia) and also take her to disneyland/world in Japan ;)

Suggest you post your question in the BA forum where you will get quick and opinionated feed-back re BA specifically. But generally speaking, the difference between First and Business is more room, fewer other pax, better service, better food and wines, better lounges with full meal service, showers, nap rooms, cigar lounges, etc... On some airlines like LH, you may even get a limo ride from the lounge to your plane. Is it worth it? To some, Business is perfectly adequate. To others that have lots of miles or can afford it, and/or are used to that level of service, it is definitely worth it. A word of warning: if you decide to fly First, you may get hooked and in the long run, it will cost you each time you fly. ;)

I am not a frequent flyer, but I will buy/get miles as much as needed to redeem for lie flat seats within my budget, or I just won't fly at all in coach for international travel. Consider it as "perks" of being 6'4 tall. I just can't imagine sitting 18 hours long in economy.

Yeah, I'm 6' 2" and if I were going on an 18hr flight (and planning on sleeping), it would be something I'd consider, but for flights 7-9 hrs (where I'm not planning on sleeping), I'm thinking that Business would be fine.

No need to do such complicated analysis on this.

To many, it is a luxury in life otherwise is not attainable if not for the mileage awards. It is as simple as that.

It is not about all the $ one can save if using the miles to fly coach so one can do several more trips. It is about the pleasant experiences flying international long haul in J or F made possible by the mileage awards.

Personally I would rather not fly if I have to be in coach for any flight longer than 10 hours. The ability to have a good sleep in a flatbed seat or a lieflat seat on such long flight far outweighs the saving of miles for one more coach flight. There are other tangible things to consider as well, such as lounge access, priority check-in / boarding, meal and beverage services in flight, fast-track for immigration... The J or F mileage awards are well worth the additional costs.

I'm not breaking any new ground with my post, but the topic interests me.

Unless you just never travel, open credit cards, create new bank accounts or participate in promotions I don't see the value in cashing in your FF miles for a coach ticket. (Besides, if you don't do these things, why are you reading FT to begin with?!?)

A round-trip ticket from DFW to LHR in October will run you $975.00 on AA in coach. A business class seat, on the same flights and for the same dates, will run you $4015.80. (Both are the non-refundable fares) AA requires 40k miles to claim a coach seat, which means that your value per mile is roughly $.02. If you wanted a business class seat you will need 100k miles, which works out to a value of roughly $.04 per mile. If you fly in business class, you are getting twice the value for your miles and 10x the amenities. On a strictly cash basis, one business class ticket is worth more than 2 round-trip coach tickets.

It all boils down to what means the most to you. I personally want to get the most value for my "money". The fact that I will never be able to afford a business class ticket without the aid of miles may also play a part into this too :)

And that's entirely opinion based. It's only 2x the value if you actually value the business class over coach. For someone like me who sees a seat as a seat and a flight as nothing more than a means of transport, there is no additional value to using the miles for business over coach.

To me it's like saying I can buy a Honda for $25k or a Benz for $50k. They're both cars, the MB doesn't have more "value" to me even though it's 2x the cost. It's just a means of transport and both will get me there in a similar fashion.

In my case, being able to go to Europe 2.5x in coach vs once in buisness is the added value. Not the other way around

If you live in East Coast, I can understand that - especially if you only travel in low season because the flight is 7 to 9 hours long, bearable in coach.

However if you live in West Coast, that is a much longer flight.

Have you ever traveled in business class? The value of a flatbed / lieflat seat to me worth more than an extra trip to Europe in coach. I can easily pay the $1000 or below coach ticket, but I would think twice to pay the $4000 business class yet I want my flatbed / lieflat seat. (and the lounge access, the priority check-in/boarding, the fast-track immigration ... ) ;)

Midwest so I likely go out of ORD or DFW

No, I haven't but the things it offers (room, service, etc) aren't the factors that make me hate flying. Until they find a way to get me overseas in an hour, I'm gonna hate flying ;)

Just another P.O.V. but I am also of the mindset that Z and U are usually not a high value redemption for me. However, international travel is a different animal as others have pointed out.

Usually the food is palatable at best and downright atrocious at worst so that offers little value to me. The quality and price of booze in Z is a definite +. The lie-flat is nice but I usually only sleep 1 way (if that) so that is also marginal. It is much easier to work in the premium cabins than economy so for those of us that wish to lighten our load so that there is less for us to do upon landing, this is also a +.

The big drawbacks in economy for me are being stuck near undesirable seatmates. IME and without sounding too snobbish, there is a greater likelihood of this happening in economy just out of sheer #'s. Also, depending on where one is seated, upwards of an hour can be saved by exiting from the premium cabin and running to immigration/customs instead of row 41.

FWIW, my next award is in Nov. and it is T to NRT and Z to DFW as I plan to try to sleep and work on the way back while 31 B or H is good enough for me when I don't intend to sleep so as to make a smoother transition when I arrive. This, obviously, won't work for everyone but everyone has their own value system. I guess that mine is just a hybrid of others in this thread.

I am also new to this game and I take at least four vacations a year. My goal is to never pay for a airline ticket and if I can just achieve this I would then be able to go away even more. For me I would deal with coach. yes it does suck to be in the cattle cabin but I rather go away an extra two more trips on top of the four when getting coach. But do agree with any flight thats 18 hours or more def. upgrading to higher class so Australia , japan and Tahiti def. upgrading as I live in NYC

overpriced
 

It needs to be said that first class and business seats are extremely overpriced...airlines charge close to 10k because companies buy the seats and write it off their taxes as operating expenses. An individual would have to be rich or pampered to pay 5 times the coach rate for front cabin amenities. I agree it comes down to personal taste, but if money or points are no concern then of course you will take the added comforts everytime. I can make a comparison to cruising...if you start with inside cabins, the cruise is still great. If you ever enjoy a balcony cabin, going back to inside is tough indeed.
Dont take offense FTers but you accumulate airline miles through work or promotions or even milage runs to keep your balances high enough where spending points on the minor luxuries of first class seems like the best use for them. For those of us who don't travel for business and have to hit every promo to get 100k miles per year the desicion is more difficult. Forgive the blasphamy but I have to say it....air travel is just transportation.

Just because you get the first class treatment (treated like a rich person as the term implies) free booze in a quiet lounge and more on the plane, you get to board first, and other than the lie down seats on limited routes/planes a you get a little more comfortable seat with extra (a foot?) legroom, a more attentive FA, more room to store your crap and an amenity bag with pjs and a toothbrush. these things are all distractions to the fact, that like the coach passengers who pay substantially less cash/points, you are herded like cattle into a tube to breathe recycled air for an extended amount of time. We all wind up in the same destination at the same time, you just pay a lot more to do it in a little more comfort. (and dont tell me its that big of a difference, unless you fly lear jets and private charters) I've flown in first and the big difference is the vacation for you starts when you get to the airport, for the rest of us it starts after we leave it.

The people with limited cash/points like me would rather fly free twice to hawaii in coach than once in first. Personally we have done this 4 times, even after getting bumped and upgraded on one leg once. I would like to do it up front but without megapoints I cant bring myself to empty my account for 1 flight. We have time to take 4 or 5 vacations a year and flying free makes them nicer when we get there (nicer resort, better excursions and resturants, more money for souvineers, ect.) I am tempted to take our next trip to hawaii (10hrs from ATL) in coach going since we are excited to be going and with the time change it seems early when we get there, and return in business or first costing 60k for the trip-- doing a half splurge and making the depressing flight home more bearable. Most of our other flights are less than 5 hours so coach is acceptable for the savings to us. heck I sleep through half the flights we take, why pay more to sleep a few feet forward?
It comes down to what you can afford and what you are accustomed to using points for. if we started getting used to upgrades, or take a few trips to Europe in first class we may never look back either, but until then if coach for free gets us there twice we can make due with it.

I'm happy to say, I've basically never flown Business or First. So I don't know what I'm missing. I'm sure it's good, but I deal with Economy for now.

Down the road, when my wife and I travel without the kids someday, we'll be more likely to splurge for First. Two tickets in First on miles is something I can handle; four would be pretty painful.

I do know that the first time I take my wife in First, Coach is done for. So I'm trying to wait it out.

Doesn't that prove the point you are attempting to disprove? The idea is that people consider the cash cost of C to determine the value of the miles they are spending, despite the fact that they wouldn't pay cash for C.

I think you're off by several feet there. Last flight I took the seat pitch in coach was 32" and 78" in business. But yes, at the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and what you can afford. For me I can get by in coach...but having taken most of my recent flights up front it makes me a lot less interested in returning to the back of the bus.

You are correct. The mileage expended on 1 business class trip will get you 2.5 trips to Europe. However, if you do that, you would be paying 2.5 times the cost would you not? (Lodging, food, transportation, spending money, etc.) So, by this rationale, you can take 2.5 trips to Europe on a budget for the same price as one luxurious trip. To me, this is like choosing to go to Vegas twice in one year and staying at a Motel 6 instead ponying up for a nice hotel on the strip on a single visit. Yes, you initially save money and get to go twice with the former, but what's the allure? If you can afford to swing two trips to Europe why not purchase the coach airfare outright and earn miles instead of expend them?

Your car comparison only holds salt if you can afford the Benz but choose to purchase the Honda. There is NO question that the Benz will have more features and be an overall nicer mode of transportation. On this same line, why go to a nice Tex-Mex restaurant when Taco Bell is so cheap? After all, it's just food and serves the same purpose doesn't it?

To each his own, but I don't see the added value.

I need to fly to Europe at least four times a year to visit my son. This has been going on for thirteen years now, and I've gradually gone from redeeming miles only for economy tickets to redeeming for business. As I've tasted the benefits of flying up front, I've grown to value them more. I wouldn't pay $3000 to fly business class to Europe, but if a $1700 or less offer came up, I'd definitely pay that. I enjoy flying, even in coach, but to me the front is so much more enjoyable. Since the miles have come so easily in recent years, I feel it foolish to use them for anything but business class. All my travel is on my own dime, by the way.

From a practical point of view, if I redeemed only for coach, making twice the number of trips on miles, I'd not have a chance of making the upper level of elite, the benefits of which I've come to appreciate. This year I'm using miles to fly C to Europe and C to SE Asia, but I'll still make Plat by astute use of promotions.

My limit on travel is not money or miles, but time. Because of mandatory furloughs and a 95%-time appointment, I now get over eight weeks off per fiscal year, but I used it all up within ten months this fiscal year. I do enjoy traveling.

When I first started on Flyertalk, there was a poster called Trvl4free, or something like that. He or she would use all the tricks to travel for virtually nothing. I can't come near that yet, but I hope that once I retire I can try to emulate that. Up front if I can swing it.

In re-reading Helena Handbaskets' post, you are correct that I did not interpret it correctly. So just view my earlier post as another recommendation for going C when using miles. I am one of those who think that the benefits of C are worth a reasonable premium. So if an all-cash C ticket was only 50% more than Y, I'd pay it just as willingly. To me it's not about the cpm milked out of the miles, it's about the cost difference between Y and C, which is tremendous when paying cash but very reasonable when using miles and therefore I recommend it.

Well,
nicer resort would be just a tiny room with amenity that I already had or rarely use.
I can deal with Wendy's as it's just food; which I could play TV games all day instead of burning my skin under the sun.
souvineers is just give aways, who cares how much is your key chain?

I am not saying you are wrong, but your concept contradicts what your doing.

To me, It's just different taste, different luxury, and different enjoyment.

I am traveling from Zurich to Kolkata,India on BA with AA miles. The economy tickets were 20k miles and business was 30k miles.....and for that 10000 miles extra i cannot even think about any calculations.

Individuals might give different cost to their miles based how they accumulated it, different cost to the comfort they receive on business vs. economy and hence you might be right from your point of view but might be wrong from my point of view and vice versa. Anyways, enjoy your trip wherever you are jetting.

You might think that flying "sucks," but trust me, it sucks a lot less in Business or First Class! :D

In all seriousness, I find flying internationally in Coach can be uncomfortable, but flying in international Business or First Class is not only pleasant, but I greatly look forward to it.

Also, some of us actually enjoy flying in any class of service. So I guess if you really do "hate" flying, then it doesn't matter where you sit!