Feb 11, 2015, 11:49 am
Last edit by: drewguy
If you've never gone through this process read this before posting!
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
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According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
Note that United has also accidentally cancelled "legitimate" tickets paid for in USD, purchased in USD from LHR... Please check your other tickets if purchased today to ensure they were not unilaterally cancelled.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
Form for filing DOT complaint. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
Template For Complaint:
-----
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
Note: Please consider that with high probability, United is monitoring this thread, so please pay attention on what you post!
DOT Investigation Updates
- 02/23/15: DOT says UA does not have to honor the fare; link to DOT's full explanation (pdf)
- 02/12/15: DOT Statement
- 02/12/15: fox news mentions DOT investigation and mention update by 5:00 pm ET -- posted by xSTRIKEx6864
- 02/12/15: Fox news clip -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Another clip on fox news interviewing the pointsguy -- posted by FlyingLasse
- 02/12/15: Person in charge at the dot is Alex Taday (don't bombard him with email - or we will all regret it) -- posted by sonofzeus
- 02/12/15: Fox News update: UA honoring fares will depends on complaints made at the DOT.... -- posted by synd
-------
According to USA Today, Ben Mutzabaugh:
United is voiding the bookings of several thousand individuals who were attempting to take advantage of an error a third-party software provider made when it applied an incorrect currency exchange rate, despite United having properly filed its fares. Most of these bookings were for travel originating in the United Kingdom, and the level of bookings made with Danish Kroner as the local currency was significantly higher than normal during the limited period that customers made these bookings.
However, there is no chance at all that you can have your tickets re-instated if you complain to DOT on the basis of DOT rule § 399.88:
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
Link to PDF of enforcement bodies for European customers affected. File complaint as soon as your ticket is cancelled.
Tips for DOT Complaint:
- File on DOT for every ticket number affected.
- If you have one reservation with four people traveling (four tickets) file 4 DOT complaints, one per ticket.
- If you have separate reservations, file a DOT complaint for each.
- The DOT complaint website may take several minutes to load, depending on demand.
- When you go to upload a file, be careful as it will reset all your radio buttons. So, if you want a copy of the complaint, make sure you double check that "Yes" is still selected before submitting, especially if you upload a file.
Template For Complaint:
United has unilaterally cancelled my ticket without my consent.
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Facts:
1. The ticket was ticketed (had a ticket number).
2. I received a confirmation number, ticket number, and emails stating both
3. The ticket was paid for and my credit card charged.
United must reinstate the ticket within its original cabin. This trip is for travel TO the United States.
At no time during the booking process was any other fare than the Danish Krone equivalent displayed. As a reasonable, prudent consumer, I believed I was paying the price displayed to me on the website. United never sent or displayed the equivalent fare in any other currency.
Trip Details
Ticket #: 016XXXXXXXXXX
PNR: XXXXXX
Routing: LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL
Attachments: Attached is a document showing the ticket, routing, and providing proof that the reservation was ticketed.
Filename: Cancelled - UA Reservation - LHR-EWR-LAX-HNL - XXXXXX - 016XXXXXXXXXX.pdf
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant Law |
| http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88 |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.
(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Relevant FAQ |
| http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/EAPP_2_FAQ.pdf |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a “mistake.”
Tips for retrieving your ticket number:
- paste(right click copy link location first) following link into your web browser
- change XXXXXX next to COPNR= for your reservation number and LASTNAME next to LN= for you SURNAME
- go to the webpage address you have just created
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...NRCD=2/11/2015
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
R E L A X
Breathe deep.
Congrats on all who got in.
Now comes the fun part.
1. Discovery - mistake fare is posted on FT. Novices frantically checks how much vacation time they have and if the dates of availability mesh with their schedules. Experienced FTers just book it and worry about contacting spouses or their boss later. Word spreads like wildfire.
2. Excitement - Tickets purchased, confirmation emails received and dates of travel shared with other FTers. Discussions of what to see and do and where to stay crop up in other threads. Novices contact source to change seats or inquire about upgrades, Seasoned FTers sit back and enjoy reading the discussion threads.
3. Stress Stage 1 - Concern over paper ticket delivery - Novices Frantically check otheFedEx website every few hours, constant monitoring of driveway for FedEx truck. Seasoned FT veterans sit back and relax.
4. Glee and happiness - Paper tickets in hand, vacation request submitted, spouses finally informed, hotel reservations made and bragging to friends and co-workers begins. Both novices and experts get very excited.
5. Stress Stage 2 - Rumors of fare not being honored, discussion threads about the airline and ticketing agency ensue. Rumors crop up like crabgrass at this stage. Many FTers begin to worry excessively about whether or not the trip will happen. Novices make non-refundable and financial committments to their trip. Seasoned FTers make mixed drinks (and maybe a sandwich) and is patient.
6. Reality Check - Accurate information is obtained - usually takes place a week to 10 days after mistake fare is published. Confirmed information from the source as to whether or not tickets will be honored.
7a. Pure Joy (Icelandair style- Fare is Honored) - Lots of happy people, FT threads on shared information regarding hotels, restaurants, tours, etc. Jealousy from others sets in. First "FT guinea pigs" embark, post confirmation threads that all is ok.
7b Hostile Feelings (Copa Airlines Style - fare is not honored) - Many angry and disappointed FTers. Refunds are issued. Novices have multiple discussion threads of lawsuits and hostile correspondence, FT pros mutter "c'est la vie" and look for the next fare mistake.
8a Success (Honored) - Trip Report thread becomes very active
Freedom of Information Act Request
File #2015-147, Office of the Secretary of Transportation - Receipt acknowledged 3/13/15
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/foia/office-secretary-foia-information
Relevant excerpt from my request on 2/24/15. There no need for multiple requests for the same thing, though feel free to request more or different information obviously. I'll post any updates as I get them.
"Under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S. C. subsection 552, I am requesting access to any and all records of correspondence, including electronic, between anyone working for, or on the behalf of, United Airlines and its subsidiaries, and with anyone working for, or on the behalf of, the Department of Transportation; specifically this would include only the date range beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015.
In addition, I am requesting access to any and all internal records and correspondence in relation to coming to the decision made on February 23rd, 2015 regarding the Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare, with the exception of any of the consumer submitted complaints via phone, email, website, or letter. Specifically, this would be any records beginning on February 11th, 2015 through and including February 24th, 2015."
[PREM FARE GONE] UA: NCL-EWR 600 DKK (mistaken fare) DOT ruled; see wiki for link
Feb 18, 2015, 1:37 pm
#4396
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: AA Plat, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 425
That's my question, and I don't think anyone has actually answered it yet.
Everyone got their money back, so I have a hard time seeing the harm or injury. But it's very easy to see the harm or injury if UA is forced to honor the tickets. And it's not just UA.
Indeed, and I like this answer. But tell me, if I cancelled my ticket within 8 hours of purchasing it, would I be subject to any sort of fine or other financial harm?
Feb 18, 2015, 1:45 pm
#4397
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: anywhere and everywhere
Programs: UA GS, AS MVP 100K, DL Diamond, Marriot Lifetime Titanium, AmEx Centurion
Posts: 5,531
EU261 compensation for the DKK mistake fare
Anyone else get in on the London fares denominated in DKK that United unilaterally opted to cancel? I had one for last weekend, United canceled and refused transport (inside of 14 days) so I've written to request EU261 compensation to the 1K voice line...
Feb 18, 2015, 1:48 pm
#4398
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: united
Posts: 1,636
I don't like venom either, but if you truly have been following this thread like you said you have, you really should have known the answer to that question already, and definitely deserved some incredulity, if not venom. The answer is at the foundation of every pro-consumer argument made on this thread: DOT needs to enforce the rules because there have to be consequences for screwing up, otherwise there is no incentive to offer correct prices and customers are subjected to bait and switch pricing without knowing that fare paid = confirmed reservation. It's one of the most basic functions of government: ensuring a level playing field where the rules apply to both sides and providing enforcement of advertising and contracts.
But the argument made here is disproven by the rest of contract law. 99 percent of consumer contracts are subject to the doctrine of unilateral mistake should they contain one. And yet nobody is actually using that doctrine to bait and switch people. And that's because it is actually really easy to distinguish between a good deal and a mistake, and the seller has the burden of proof and has to convince a jury to let them out.
Obviously it is possible to legally allow some contracts to be rescinded in extreme situations without making the entire marketplace caveat emptor.
Feb 18, 2015, 1:54 pm
#4399
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,859
https://twitter.com/gg8929/status/567795069139578881
Feb 18, 2015, 1:54 pm
#4400
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ICT
Programs: AA ExP
Posts: 1,860
Why? Who was _harmed_ or _injured_ by the screwup? You? Me?
That's my question, and I don't think anyone has actually answered it yet.
Everyone got their money back, so I have a hard time seeing the harm or injury. But it's very easy to see the harm or injury if UA is forced to honor the tickets. And it's not just UA.
Indeed, and I like this answer. But tell me, if I cancelled my ticket within 8 hours of purchasing it, would I be subject to any sort of fine or other financial harm?
That's my question, and I don't think anyone has actually answered it yet.
Everyone got their money back, so I have a hard time seeing the harm or injury. But it's very easy to see the harm or injury if UA is forced to honor the tickets. And it's not just UA.
Indeed, and I like this answer. But tell me, if I cancelled my ticket within 8 hours of purchasing it, would I be subject to any sort of fine or other financial harm?
- Limited instances of major harm: Some people who were traveling immediately were denied boarding at the airport and were left hanging or scrambling.
- Major instances of limited harm: For example, my family was very excited about our summer London, Scotland, Ireland trip with F for 3 of us and C for 4 of us, all on the same planes. They're going to be massively disappointed and we're going to have to go back to splitting across 3x EI flights across two days if DOT doesn't enforce the rules.
- Systemic major harm: Moral hazard. This is the most harmful thing and is what my previous post focused upon. It's the same principle as too-big-to-fail bank bailouts: if there is no concrete consequence for mistakes, it encourages further responsibility-free mistakes.
Feb 18, 2015, 1:58 pm
#4401
Join Date: Aug 2013
Programs: AA EXP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 273
I see the point of the DOT rule- it protects someone who comes upon a fare on an airline website, buys it, and then engages in all sorts of trip planning and arrangements, only to get the rug pulled out later. It addresses a real problem.
But the argument made here is disproven by the rest of contract law. 99 percent of consumer contracts are subject to the doctrine of unilateral mistake should they contain one. And yet nobody is actually using that doctrine to bait and switch people. And that's because it is actually really easy to distinguish between a good deal and a mistake, and the seller has the burden of proof and has to convince a jury to let them out.
Obviously it is possible to legally allow some contracts to be rescinded in extreme situations without making the entire marketplace caveat emptor.
But the argument made here is disproven by the rest of contract law. 99 percent of consumer contracts are subject to the doctrine of unilateral mistake should they contain one. And yet nobody is actually using that doctrine to bait and switch people. And that's because it is actually really easy to distinguish between a good deal and a mistake, and the seller has the burden of proof and has to convince a jury to let them out.
Obviously it is possible to legally allow some contracts to be rescinded in extreme situations without making the entire marketplace caveat emptor.
You can allow legally some contracts to be rescinded, just not in the case of airline travel and fully ticketed and paid for reservations whereas it states they cannot be
Nobody uses that to bait and switch people because it is not often that a regular consumer signs a large legal contract when purchasing an item
Feb 18, 2015, 2:08 pm
#4402
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: anywhere and everywhere
Programs: UA GS, AS MVP 100K, DL Diamond, Marriot Lifetime Titanium, AmEx Centurion
Posts: 5,531
Feb 18, 2015, 2:08 pm
#4403
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,852
But the real point here, as I'm sure you already know, is that contract law doesn't apply here. The DOT regs do.... Especially made to supercede that (yes I know it's only a fine) for transportation like this, and if taken at face value leaving not much room for doubt.
Unfair or not, that's what the real point is.
Only thing to do to see if the DOT weasels its way out if this by claiming their own rules can be a bit unfair. Welcome to our world where airline contracts are nearly always unfair.
Unfair or not, that's what the real point is.
Only thing to do to see if the DOT weasels its way out if this by claiming their own rules can be a bit unfair. Welcome to our world where airline contracts are nearly always unfair.
Feb 18, 2015, 2:23 pm
#4405
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: AA Plat, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 425
There are some limited instances of major harm, major instances of limited harm, and systemic major harm, respectively:
- Limited instances of major harm: Some people who were traveling immediately were denied boarding at the airport and were left hanging or scrambling.
- Major instances of limited harm: For example, my family was very excited about our summer London, Scotland, Ireland trip with F for 3 of us and C for 4 of us, all on the same planes. They're going to be massively disappointed and we're going to have to go back to splitting across 3x EI flights across two days if DOT doesn't enforce the rules.
- Systemic major harm: Moral hazard. This is the most harmful thing and is what my previous post focused upon. It's the same principle as too-big-to-fail bank bailouts: if there is no concrete consequence for mistakes, it encourages further responsibility-free mistakes.
- in your limited issue of major harm, were these people going to even fly but for the existence of a perceived way to do it for 99% off? If not, I can't see a major harm. But I'm fine if we accept your premise arguendo. How does the limited major harm extrapolate to forcing UA to honor tickets for the vast majority of people who do not fall into that category? They were not "abused," were they?
- in your major instances of limited harm, that hardly rises to "abuse."
- moral hazard? This is a circular argument. Moral hazard happens when negligence leads to harm. But since everyone got their money back, they cannot show harm that way. Again, not "abuse."
I think the more relevant question has been asked and answered here:
https://twitter.com/gg8929/status/567795069139578881
https://twitter.com/gg8929/status/567795069139578881
Feb 18, 2015, 2:33 pm
#4406
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Between AMS and BRU
Posts: 8,852
But if I should speculate, do something about getting the full amount of taxes paid and honor the rest. It's not like the costs for UA is that high for a seat they would never sell anyway (generally speaking).
Or stick with the cancellations, express that you are sorry (which of course they aren't, it's that pesky 3rd party) and do something productive like handing out a decent amount of miles to those that booked, or give a mountain of free tickets to some charity.... Plus pay the fine.
Feb 18, 2015, 2:41 pm
#4407
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BTS
Posts: 611
In any case, Dot rules are 100% clear on this so there is only one possible outcome...
Feb 18, 2015, 2:48 pm
#4408
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: madam's organ
Posts: 269
Scibuff-
Interesting idea, but at least in my case from the generous fare rules (lots of stopovers) and dates chosen, I personally wouldn't be able to book the same flights (using miles with the saver rates) which I need/want to fly
Interesting idea, but at least in my case from the generous fare rules (lots of stopovers) and dates chosen, I personally wouldn't be able to book the same flights (using miles with the saver rates) which I need/want to fly
Feb 18, 2015, 2:50 pm
#4409
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: BWI<MCI< PHL<DEN<SCL<EZE<CHO<PHL<ABE
Programs: UA Silver / FA
Posts: 939
Sometimes I feel like UA knows something we don't re: DOT rules, and how firmly they hold the "third party conversion" line. They have honored mistakes before where they forgot a 0 ($1,7xx BOS-ICN mistake). This is a different animal.
I know personally I'd take a J or Y seat without hesitation.. but plenty on here have said "no way" to taking a Y seat, and that's their opinion.
Feb 18, 2015, 2:53 pm
#4410
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ICT
Programs: AA ExP
Posts: 1,860
Given the DOT regulation which clearly says mistake fares must be honored, I already was making solid plans on the basis of this. The rest of my family was adjusting obligations (my brother turned down a $1k contract based on these dates instead of the EI dates) and making plans. Like I say more clearly below, if the DOT doesn't like their existing rules, they need to modify them. But in the meantime, they must enforce them, because the existence of those rules magnifies the harm if they were to change their minds and not enforce the rules as written after all, because people who are aware of the rules and have seen the past pattern of enforcement then rely on these error fares and make firm plans on the basis of them, even when the airlines are ignorant of the rules.
Not being able to rely on advertised, purchased, and confirmed prices is abusive harm. It is broadly acknowledged by economists and vividly demonstrated by banana republics that lack of contract solidity (nationalization of oil companies, Russian-style crony capitalism), fiat currency uncertainty (rapid inflation or deflation Zimbabwe-style), and all manner of not having the solidity of knowing that a deal is a deal at the agreed upon value, bring extreme economic harm in the macro. Movement toward that model where certain big businesses own the government and make the rules of contracts asymmetrical is bad. No, this issue will not cause economic collapse in the US, but it will do damage to the public's trust in buying airline tickets and knowing that a confirmation is a confirmation, which does bring economic damage. However, the greatest harm and abuse is the macro trend toward crony capitalism where the rules are different for the big guys versus the little guys.
If I make a bankrupting financial mistake, I lose my house; AIG makes a bankrupting financial mistake, they get an $85b bailout. I make a mistake in purchasing tickets, they're non-refundable; United makes a mistake in selling tickets, they're rescindable with not a bit of penalty. What's the direct harm to me? The $k's of change fees I've spent, for starters. But the damage of slanted playing fields--fields slanted by billion dollar lobbyists--to the overall economic and legal systems is much greater.
None of this is to say that there should not be a bright line of some sort where the airlines or the consumers are not responsible for the mistakes (24 hours to make a change seems good to me, as that's what consumers have). However, that is not currently the DOT regulation. Until the regulations change (which I find likely to happen over the next few months, given DOT has already indicated they want to change things up), the DOT should not ignore their own regulations just because they didn't think them through. That's the precise same moral hazard they would be enabling for the airlines.
If I make a bankrupting financial mistake, I lose my house; AIG makes a bankrupting financial mistake, they get an $85b bailout. I make a mistake in purchasing tickets, they're non-refundable; United makes a mistake in selling tickets, they're rescindable with not a bit of penalty. What's the direct harm to me? The $k's of change fees I've spent, for starters. But the damage of slanted playing fields--fields slanted by billion dollar lobbyists--to the overall economic and legal systems is much greater.
None of this is to say that there should not be a bright line of some sort where the airlines or the consumers are not responsible for the mistakes (24 hours to make a change seems good to me, as that's what consumers have). However, that is not currently the DOT regulation. Until the regulations change (which I find likely to happen over the next few months, given DOT has already indicated they want to change things up), the DOT should not ignore their own regulations just because they didn't think them through. That's the precise same moral hazard they would be enabling for the airlines.