(Gone) RGN - SFO in F $450 one way AI; other N. America cities included
May 4, 2012, 8:02 am
#1996
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ (PHL, EWR)
Programs: A3 Gold, BA Bronze
Posts: 1,633
Wait until you get older, have a miserable job, and are itching for a battle. Then you'll be with us 1% fighting this.
May 4, 2012, 8:05 am
#1997
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 612
May 4, 2012, 8:06 am
#1998
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: BHX
Programs: BA GGL CCR GfL, SQ Gold, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond, Marriott Plat, Cafe Nero Loyalty Card (7 Stamps)
Posts: 7,358
On a good day, a nicely worded, personalised apology would probably be enough; if it was sincere.
Catch me on a bad day, and I'll tell them to FO. Even if they're offering a sack full of miles.
Catch me on a very bad day and they'd be told to insert their miles, one by one, into their darkest cavity. Preferably using a particularly prickly pineapple.
May 4, 2012, 8:15 am
#1999
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Moscow
Programs: Marriott Titanium, IHG Diamond AMB
Posts: 1,756
That said, I'll PM some addresses to you
May 4, 2012, 8:23 am
#2000
Join Date: Aug 2010
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 76
For me, it just depends what mood I'm in on the day.
On a good day, a nicely worded, personalised apology would probably be enough; if it was sincere.
Catch me on a bad day, and I'll tell them to FO. Even if they're offering a sack full of miles.
Catch me on a very bad day and they'd be told to insert their miles, one by one, into their darkest cavity. Preferably using a particularly prickly pineapple.
On a good day, a nicely worded, personalised apology would probably be enough; if it was sincere.
Catch me on a bad day, and I'll tell them to FO. Even if they're offering a sack full of miles.
Catch me on a very bad day and they'd be told to insert their miles, one by one, into their darkest cavity. Preferably using a particularly prickly pineapple.
May 4, 2012, 8:24 am
#2001
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Multiple locations
Programs: AAdvantage ExPlat LT Gold, BA Silver, Aegean Star Gold
Posts: 5,038
Uhm, just wanted to remind certain users who say that we are not protected by the new DOT rules, since this is a "mistake" fare, that the subject has been covered in the document, and guess what they are pretty clear about this type of situation...
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
Does the prohibition on post-purchase price increases in section 399.88(a) apply in the situation
where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a
consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a
consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a
government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing
a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if
a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or
the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the
seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the
fare is a “mistake.”
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right
to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any
contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price
increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712
where a carrier mistakenly offers an airfare due to a computer problem or human error and a
consumer purchases the ticket at that fare before the carrier is able to fix the mistake?
Section 399.88(a) states that it is an unfair and deceptive practice for any seller of scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, or of a tour or tour component that includes scheduled air
transportation within, to, or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation to a
consumer after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of a
government-imposed tax or fee and only if the passenger is advised of a possible increase before purchasing
a ticket. A purchase occurs when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer. Therefore, if
a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or
the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the
seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the
fare is a “mistake.”
A contract of carriage provision that reserves the right to cancel such ticketed purchases or reserves the right
to raise the fare cannot legalize the practice described above. The Enforcement Office would consider any
contract of carriage provision that attempts to relieve a carrier of the prohibition against post-purchase price
increase to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 41712
May 4, 2012, 8:25 am
#2002
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,439
Uhm, just wanted to remind certain users who say that we are not protected by the new DOT rules, since this is a "mistake" fare, that the subject has been covered in the document, and guess what they are pretty clear about this type of situation...
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
May 4, 2012, 8:28 am
#2003
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Multiple locations
Programs: AAdvantage ExPlat LT Gold, BA Silver, Aegean Star Gold
Posts: 5,038
May 4, 2012, 8:46 am
#2004
Join Date: May 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA LT PLT, DL 1MM, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 206
Uhm, just wanted to remind certain users who say that we are not protected by the new DOT rules, since this is a "mistake" fare, that the subject has been covered in the document, and guess what they are pretty clear about this type of situation...
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
Of course, there are going to be people who watch for mistakes and take advantage of them...but the DOT is saying that's the cost of doing business.
One problem is that the ENFORCEMENT mechanism doesn't seem to really benefit the consumer much. The US Code provision cited in the FAQ, 49 USC § 41712, says, among other things:
"If the Secretary, after notice and an opportunity for a hearing, finds that an air carrier, foreign air carrier, or ticket agent is engaged in an unfair or deceptive practice or unfair method of competition, the Secretary shall order the air carrier, foreign air carrier, or ticket agent to stop the practice or method." (Emphasis mine.)
Sounds like my Mommy telling me to keep my hands out of the cookie jar.
May 4, 2012, 8:54 am
#2005
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold (prev. Ex Plat for 10 years); DL Plat; UA Gold; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,339
Uhm, just wanted to remind certain users who say that we are not protected by the new DOT rules, since this is a "mistake" fare, that the subject has been covered in the document, and guess what they are pretty clear about this type of situation...
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
Upstream in this thread someone posted a copy of a (translated) note from KE to their travel agent that claimed their internal price for the affected itinerary was $12,000 but the IATA currency issue caused it to be priced at a fraction of that price. Based on the reality of this very unique situation I believe it will be KE's stance with the DOT that this was not an error fare. Rather, it was a technical error with the IATA system that caused the fares to be priced wrong. Had these been ACTUAL error fares filed by KE it would be much harder for them to avoid the DOT ruling. At any rate, I've filed my DOT complaint and will wait to see what their response will be.
May 4, 2012, 8:55 am
#2006
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: DCA/IAD
Programs: most of them
Posts: 3,283
May 4, 2012, 8:59 am
#2007
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,983
KE is full of themselves. When the deal was getting killed, and $200 C fare rgn- nan was still selling it had KE in it ( although with a bit of effort you could route without them), at the same time they were already canceling other tickets as reported here. Just inexcusable.
May 4, 2012, 9:05 am
#2008
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA/IAD
Programs: UA*S/Club, Hyatt Plat, Marriott Silver
Posts: 485
Uhm, just wanted to remind certain users who say that we are not protected by the new DOT rules, since this is a "mistake" fare, that the subject has been covered in the document, and guess what they are pretty clear about this type of situation...
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
May 4, 2012, 9:09 am
#2009
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Gold (prev. Ex Plat for 10 years); DL Plat; UA Gold; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,339
OK - I'll bite -- has anyone been asked to pay more or have their tickets cancelled? Seems like people are just having their tickets cancelled - not sure this is the same circumstance covered by the DOT regs. Obviously could still be covered by other remedies - breach of contract, etc.
Last edited by dll; May 4, 2012 at 9:16 am
May 4, 2012, 9:16 am
#2010
Join Date: Apr 2007
Programs: QF, VA, AC, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 3,787
Upstream in this thread someone posted a copy of a (translated) note from KE to their travel agent that claimed their internal price for the affected itinerary was $12,000 but the IATA currency issue caused it to be priced at a fraction of that price. Based on the reality of this very unique situation I believe it will be KE's stance with the DOT that this was not an error fare. Rather, it was a technical error with the IATA system that caused the fares to be priced wrong. Had these been ACTUAL error fares filed by KE it would be much harder for them to avoid the DOT ruling. At any rate, I've filed my DOT complaint and will wait to see what their response will be.
A mistake will always have a reason behind in. In this case, assuming the fares are mistake fares, the reason appears to be the result of a currency conversion. In other cases, it might be the result of an employee with Parkinson's Disease who accidentally hits the wrong key. Or a computer glitch that causes 9s to be 0s. Or a disgruntled employee who decides to stick it up their airline/agent.
They'll always be a reason but the DOT regulation appears to be quite explicit: you make a mistake, you pay the price - literally.
I would also argue that the DOT regulation allows airlines/agents the opportunity to avoid mistakes. That is, the airline/agent is only held liable when they take your money. If they have systems or processes in place to prevent or at least detect mistakes, then they're fine.