How Different Credit Card companies handle MS ?
Jun 17, 2017, 7:32 pm
#31
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 184
And looking at a Moneygram MO (from walmart), it has 3 lines on it
1) "Pay to the order of"
2) "Purchaser, signer for drawer"
3) "Address"
So there really is only space for a senders signature, not really for name. I have no idea what address is for so I leave it blank.
Jun 20, 2017, 4:30 pm
#32
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 266
That's cuz your bank filed a SAR (suspicious activity report) on you. A CTR if you deposited over $10k in a day.
Someone's been monitoring you, for a different purpose of course.
Oh also rule for fight club (SAR club), the act of asking whether they plan on filing a SAR on you will likely result in getting a SAR filed for that question.
And if you deposit say $9k every days, it's likely going to also get a SAR filed for structuring (or perceived structuring if you actually are doing legal things).
Jun 20, 2017, 4:45 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 266
Don't ask me how I know, but let's just say, I know...but I'm going to address these things here:
There's nothing illegal about depositing MOs. The "challenges" arent' even roadblocks per se. People are getting questions from tellers why you're doing this event. It's bank policy to question what they deem is suspicious transactions. It's part of BSA/AML procedures banks have to do to assess risk. They're not going to refuse a deposit.
They see everything, they know everything that you have. They are tracking it physically and with software. In fact, you don't even have to deposit it into an account of your name. The fact that you are doing it all on 1 occasion is recorded as potential suspicious. So don't bother sending in a mule either. They'll record it.
you hit it on the dot here. It's comes down to volume and patterns. But every bank has different monitoring processes for suspicious activities. It's impossible to guess it b/c every bank has a different monitoring process. Also today's transaction monitoring software is incredibly powerful. They can even pick up patterns of smaller deposits (or withdrawals) as suspicious if outside of the norm.
This is straight up incorrect assumption, poor advice and potentially more trouble for you if you approach it this way. Firstly, MOs are defined as cash instruments. It's not a check. You can call it a check, but the law says it's no different than cash (for amounts of less than $10k in aggregate).
As I mentioned above, there's nothing illegal about making MO deposits, they will never refuse a deposit. However, they have a customer profile of you. They have a reasonable understanding of who you are and what you do. If say you're a W-2 wage earner with direct deposit checks from company coming into your personal checking account, and you're constantly depositing cash, then it's going to look suspicious, UNLESS of course, you're honest with them on what you're actually doing.
That's why I said, it's more trouble for you if you tell them "none of your business". You're in your right to say that, but heaven forbid you are accused of some type of financial crime. Your deposits and your reaction is filed and a terrorist/drug financing professional (CIA/FBI/NSA/DEA) will attempt to construct a story on what you're doing. Sure you're clean today, but it can cause more trouble for you if you somehow "stray". Say they monitor you and you happen to buy some (or worst case sell) pot on the side...wow, good luck getting out of this one. So you say, "well, I'll never do anything illegal", but then you're depositing money into accounts of your wife, kid, buddy, etc. What if THEY do something illegal. Again, they will trace transactions back to you and try to get you involved in their dealings, even if they don't have a case with you, you're going to be questioned, you're going to hire lawyers.
Now if you tell them you are a credit card churner, they might not even file a SAR.
Executive summary: just be honest with the bank on what you're doing when asked. In fact, you SHOULD go to the same branch everytime. You SHOULD talk to the tellers, get on a first name basis. Tell them what you're doing, encourage them to do it. Show them how fun it is an the benefits. It's these frontline tellers that initiate SAR filings on you.
And don't ever "stray". You're already being monitored, there's already heightened scrutiny on you if they have a reason to pull all the filings related to you.
And BTW, you should probably keep all your deposit slips, pictures/receipts of all your MOs and credit card statements. The most likely trouble you'll run into is an IRS audit not based on terrorist/money laundering activities. They can simply think you're dodging taxes and then see that you're depositing a ton of cash instruments. You better have your story straighten out and ready to go so there's no question to what you were doing.
I usually get mine blank at the PO for $495. I go to bank immediately after. Scribble my own name as the recipient, sign it, deposit it. Sometimes 3 or 4 at a time for a total deposit of $1,980. Personally, I always deposit and never cash them.
To the bank, it's the same scenario as depositing a check. That is why I am baffled by Flyertalkers who mention they are leery to deposit money orders or their bank gives them a hard time.
If they ask "Why are you the buyer and the recipient?," then you should be able to say "none of your business" but probably better to say "It's like writing myself a check for business purposes."
To the bank, it's the same scenario as depositing a check. That is why I am baffled by Flyertalkers who mention they are leery to deposit money orders or their bank gives them a hard time.
If they ask "Why are you the buyer and the recipient?," then you should be able to say "none of your business" but probably better to say "It's like writing myself a check for business purposes."
This is straight up incorrect assumption, poor advice and potentially more trouble for you if you approach it this way. Firstly, MOs are defined as cash instruments. It's not a check. You can call it a check, but the law says it's no different than cash (for amounts of less than $10k in aggregate).
As I mentioned above, there's nothing illegal about making MO deposits, they will never refuse a deposit. However, they have a customer profile of you. They have a reasonable understanding of who you are and what you do. If say you're a W-2 wage earner with direct deposit checks from company coming into your personal checking account, and you're constantly depositing cash, then it's going to look suspicious, UNLESS of course, you're honest with them on what you're actually doing.
That's why I said, it's more trouble for you if you tell them "none of your business". You're in your right to say that, but heaven forbid you are accused of some type of financial crime. Your deposits and your reaction is filed and a terrorist/drug financing professional (CIA/FBI/NSA/DEA) will attempt to construct a story on what you're doing. Sure you're clean today, but it can cause more trouble for you if you somehow "stray". Say they monitor you and you happen to buy some (or worst case sell) pot on the side...wow, good luck getting out of this one. So you say, "well, I'll never do anything illegal", but then you're depositing money into accounts of your wife, kid, buddy, etc. What if THEY do something illegal. Again, they will trace transactions back to you and try to get you involved in their dealings, even if they don't have a case with you, you're going to be questioned, you're going to hire lawyers.
Now if you tell them you are a credit card churner, they might not even file a SAR.
Executive summary: just be honest with the bank on what you're doing when asked. In fact, you SHOULD go to the same branch everytime. You SHOULD talk to the tellers, get on a first name basis. Tell them what you're doing, encourage them to do it. Show them how fun it is an the benefits. It's these frontline tellers that initiate SAR filings on you.
And don't ever "stray". You're already being monitored, there's already heightened scrutiny on you if they have a reason to pull all the filings related to you.
And BTW, you should probably keep all your deposit slips, pictures/receipts of all your MOs and credit card statements. The most likely trouble you'll run into is an IRS audit not based on terrorist/money laundering activities. They can simply think you're dodging taxes and then see that you're depositing a ton of cash instruments. You better have your story straighten out and ready to go so there's no question to what you were doing.
Last edited by mdosu; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:25 pm
Jun 20, 2017, 5:23 pm
#34
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 910
I'm curious whether suspicion for financial monitoring without any court orders or evidence of wrong doing can also include internet/devices monitoring. Not that we'd have anything to hide, but it would definitely add a creepy layer to the 'side effects' of this hobby.
1 occasion being one trip to bank A to deposit MOs on different accounts? So would different trips (assuming you have different accounts where you deposit) mean less suspicion?
Sounds like there's either files being kept for a long time merely on suspicion, or monitoring is happening for a long time. I wonder how long that might be, i.e. months or years, and whether the suspicion would drop if you stop said activities that warranted the extra monitoring to begin with.
For me, and I guess most people, the concern is that a low level clerk or management might not be familiar with our hobbies and decide to limit or shut us down altogether because they can't make sense of it (not familiar with it, or sounds fishy to them, etc). Hence the reflexive responses in being evasive or vague and not flat out telling them what we do, to the average banker or WM rep etc.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
For me, and I guess most people, the concern is that a low level clerk or management might not be familiar with our hobbies and decide to limit or shut us down altogether because they can't make sense of it (not familiar with it, or sounds fishy to them, etc). Hence the reflexive responses in being evasive or vague and not flat out telling them what we do, to the average banker or WM rep etc.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
Last edited by NoonRadar; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:29 pm
Jun 20, 2017, 5:35 pm
#35
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 266
1 occasion being one trip to bank A to deposit MOs on different accounts? So would different trips (assuming you have different accounts where you deposit) mean less suspicion?
Sounds like there's either files being kept for a long time merely on suspicion, or monitoring is happening for a long time. I wonder how long that might be, i.e. months or years, and whether the suspicion would drop if you stop said activities that warranted the extra monitoring to begin with.
For me, and I guess most people, the concern is that a low level clerk or management might not be familiar with our hobbies and decide to limit or shut us down altogether because they can't make sense of it (not familiar with it, or sounds fishy to them, etc). Hence the reflexive responses in being evasive or vague and not flat out telling them what we do, to the average banker or WM rep etc.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
Sounds like there's either files being kept for a long time merely on suspicion, or monitoring is happening for a long time. I wonder how long that might be, i.e. months or years, and whether the suspicion would drop if you stop said activities that warranted the extra monitoring to begin with.
For me, and I guess most people, the concern is that a low level clerk or management might not be familiar with our hobbies and decide to limit or shut us down altogether because they can't make sense of it (not familiar with it, or sounds fishy to them, etc). Hence the reflexive responses in being evasive or vague and not flat out telling them what we do, to the average banker or WM rep etc.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
To answer your question:
Sounds like there's either files being kept for a long time merely on suspicion, or monitoring is happening for a long time. I wonder how long that might be, i.e. months or years, and whether the suspicion would drop if you stop said activities that warranted the extra monitoring to begin with.
When I say "stray" I meant, you actually performing financial crimes. That's why I said, you can be selling pot on the side, or something you can't control, like your buddy's account you deposit in and he was doing some crazy on the side. B/c once law enforcement picks up on it, they'll monitor your transactions and it won't look good, which increases even more scrutiny. And if it's your buddy's (or son) that's doing it and you happen to deposit MOs into his account every few months...wow, if I were a detective, you would be the next person I'm looking into.
For me, and I guess most people, the concern is that a low level clerk or management might not be familiar with our hobbies and decide to limit or shut us down altogether because they can't make sense of it (not familiar with it, or sounds fishy to them, etc). Hence the reflexive responses in being evasive or vague and not flat out telling them what we do, to the average banker or WM rep etc.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
Now if an investigator or seemingly in-the-know type asked me, I'd have no reservation telling them exactly what's up and volunteer to give them reasonable contact info of mine (like a phone nr or ID info) in case they want to get in touch with me later...not that they can't find that, but just to show them I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't be very comfortable with SSN and such info being filed at a WM drawer somewhere, so I wouldn't be volunteering that unless it seemed essential.
I keep talking about a customer profile. That's key in monitoring transactions and filing suspicious reports. So it'll help if you have an actual company and commercial account and you transact with it. B/c those can potentially qualify for an exemption for large currency transactions...potentially...it comes down to the business and patterns again. This is called "know your customer". Banks develop a profile and assess the risk and patterns of said profile. Then software monitors it for when patterns change. Then there are a whole bucket of businesses that NEVER can get exempt (lawyers, car dealers, auctions, pawnbrokers). And this is just large currency transactions. SARs have no such things as exemptions for businesses, if it's suspicious, it'll get reported.
But anyways this thread has itself gone astray. It's suppose to talk about how CC companies monitor MS. There's a separate thread for MS and impacts with IRS and banks I this subforum.
Also if you do some minor MS-ing, (like less than $1000). Don't even worry about it. You should only be concerned if you're doing like 10's to 100's of thousands a year...like a professional churner.
Last edited by mdosu; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:59 pm
Jun 21, 2017, 5:29 pm
#36
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 40
To answer your question:
Hard to say, depends on the teller, depends on the monitoring software. These days the software is very good at picking up smaller transactions to be deemed suspicious. It's monitoring patterns...hard to say doing it on 1 occasion versus multiple occasions. The thing is, it's about the customer profile. Software can see what you generally do with the account (direct deposit?, grandma's checks?, paying bills?, paying for hookers?). I can probably say, that most tellers seeing even 1 occasion of MOs being deposited by 1 person into other people's accounts in large amounts will result in a SAR filing. Crazy thing is, the law specifically says a bank must monitor transactions at multiple branches too, so by going to another branch the same day will actually increase suspicious monitoring on you. I would do it in 1 transaction. Frequent vs infrequent and how many accounts is up to you as you're at the mercy of the monitoring software. Believe me, you're not fooling anyone (or any software) by using multiple accounts at the same bank.
5-years is the statutory requirement for SAR/CTR files on the bank's side. But that's just so regulators can come in and review their processes for adequacy. Now a SAR and CTR is reported to FINCEN (US Treasury's financial crimes) and IRS...they can keep it forever, I'm not familiar with this aspect. Likely for terrorist financing, and other crimes, they can keep it forever.
When I say "stray" I meant, you actually performing financial crimes. That's why I said, you can be selling pot on the side, or something you can't control, like your buddy's account you deposit in and he was doing some crazy on the side. B/c once law enforcement picks up on it, they'll monitor your transactions and it won't look good, which increases even more scrutiny. And if it's your buddy's (or son) that's doing it and you happen to deposit MOs into his account every few months...wow, if I were a detective, you would be the next person I'm looking into.
hard to say. I would be honest. Don't use words like "churn" or "MS". Just say you have credit card bonuses you need to maintain in a short period of time. Everyone understands those.
I keep talking about a customer profile. That's key in monitoring transactions and filing suspicious reports. So it'll help if you have an actual company and commercial account and you transact with it. B/c those can potentially qualify for an exemption for large currency transactions...potentially...it comes down to the business and patterns again. This is called "know your customer". Banks develop a profile and assess the risk and patterns of said profile. Then software monitors it for when patterns change. Then there are a whole bucket of businesses that NEVER can get exempt (lawyers, car dealers, auctions, pawnbrokers). And this is just large currency transactions. SARs have no such things as exemptions for businesses, if it's suspicious, it'll get reported.
But anyways this thread has itself gone astray. It's suppose to talk about how CC companies monitor MS. There's a separate thread for MS and impacts with IRS and banks I this subforum.
Also if you do some minor MS-ing, (like less than $1000). Don't even worry about it. You should only be concerned if you're doing like 10's to 100's of thousands a year...like a professional churner.
Hard to say, depends on the teller, depends on the monitoring software. These days the software is very good at picking up smaller transactions to be deemed suspicious. It's monitoring patterns...hard to say doing it on 1 occasion versus multiple occasions. The thing is, it's about the customer profile. Software can see what you generally do with the account (direct deposit?, grandma's checks?, paying bills?, paying for hookers?). I can probably say, that most tellers seeing even 1 occasion of MOs being deposited by 1 person into other people's accounts in large amounts will result in a SAR filing. Crazy thing is, the law specifically says a bank must monitor transactions at multiple branches too, so by going to another branch the same day will actually increase suspicious monitoring on you. I would do it in 1 transaction. Frequent vs infrequent and how many accounts is up to you as you're at the mercy of the monitoring software. Believe me, you're not fooling anyone (or any software) by using multiple accounts at the same bank.
5-years is the statutory requirement for SAR/CTR files on the bank's side. But that's just so regulators can come in and review their processes for adequacy. Now a SAR and CTR is reported to FINCEN (US Treasury's financial crimes) and IRS...they can keep it forever, I'm not familiar with this aspect. Likely for terrorist financing, and other crimes, they can keep it forever.
When I say "stray" I meant, you actually performing financial crimes. That's why I said, you can be selling pot on the side, or something you can't control, like your buddy's account you deposit in and he was doing some crazy on the side. B/c once law enforcement picks up on it, they'll monitor your transactions and it won't look good, which increases even more scrutiny. And if it's your buddy's (or son) that's doing it and you happen to deposit MOs into his account every few months...wow, if I were a detective, you would be the next person I'm looking into.
hard to say. I would be honest. Don't use words like "churn" or "MS". Just say you have credit card bonuses you need to maintain in a short period of time. Everyone understands those.
I keep talking about a customer profile. That's key in monitoring transactions and filing suspicious reports. So it'll help if you have an actual company and commercial account and you transact with it. B/c those can potentially qualify for an exemption for large currency transactions...potentially...it comes down to the business and patterns again. This is called "know your customer". Banks develop a profile and assess the risk and patterns of said profile. Then software monitors it for when patterns change. Then there are a whole bucket of businesses that NEVER can get exempt (lawyers, car dealers, auctions, pawnbrokers). And this is just large currency transactions. SARs have no such things as exemptions for businesses, if it's suspicious, it'll get reported.
But anyways this thread has itself gone astray. It's suppose to talk about how CC companies monitor MS. There's a separate thread for MS and impacts with IRS and banks I this subforum.
Also if you do some minor MS-ing, (like less than $1000). Don't even worry about it. You should only be concerned if you're doing like 10's to 100's of thousands a year...like a professional churner.
Jun 21, 2017, 5:34 pm
#37
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 266
The best approach would be to deposit all the MO's to a single account under your name. And if asked, just tell them honestly what you're doing. Doing it any other way will increase suspicion. If they file a SAR, then so be it.
The biggest risk is an IRS tax related audit and they may want to know where you got your MOs from. So it's best (in your own interest) to keep an audit trail of your MS-ing.
Jun 21, 2017, 5:55 pm
#38
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 40
I have saved all my receipts..every MS transaction has the cc receipt, the ,mo receipt and the bank deposit receipt and the GC stapled together..even kept the GC packaging too. I did in 4 months $22k. Most deposited to WF account via ATM and the other to Alliant...never had any problems depositing or liquidating at WM, the PO or my grocery store. But I just MSed half my annual income in 4 months...don't want any IRS problems...so I'm done with this...
Jun 21, 2017, 9:03 pm
#39
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 67
I have saved all my receipts..every MS transaction has the cc receipt, the ,mo receipt and the bank deposit receipt and the GC stapled together..even kept the GC packaging too. I did in 4 months $22k. Most deposited to WF account via ATM and the other to Alliant...never had any problems depositing or liquidating at WM, the PO or my grocery store. But I just MSed half my annual income in 4 months...don't want any IRS problems...so I'm done with this...
Jun 21, 2017, 10:36 pm
#40
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 910
Also many if not most of us also do bank bonuses so several open/close accounts and money going in an out of accounts via ACH, so that probably adds to that.
As to how much we should be concerned, hard to say, mostly because I don't know much about the type of tabs the gov might be keeping about someone like me and repercussions that might follow down the line. For now I'll keep going.
The worst I've read here is a fed guy knocking on someone's door and interviewing them, and/or them needing to submit paperwork to show this is indeed miles/points/cashback hobby and nothing illegal. That's not to say worst things haven't happen, but if so probably because like you said the person was somehow connected to something illegal.
P.S. Where's the dedicated thread here about such topics that you mentioned? If there is one prob best to carry this over there.
Jun 22, 2017, 11:01 am
#41
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SFO
Posts: 266
My guess is very few people participating in this forum do such minor MSing like a couple of K/year. I max out the $15K/month GCM limit plus sign up bonuses here and there, also the occasional OD/OM promos and such, and I consider myself a light MS-er by what I read around here. I deposit almost all of the MOs on biz accnt.
Also many if not most of us also do bank bonuses so several open/close accounts and money going in an out of accounts via ACH, so that probably adds to that.
As to how much we should be concerned, hard to say, mostly because I don't know much about the type of tabs the gov might be keeping about someone like me and repercussions that might follow down the line. For now I'll keep going.
The worst I've read here is a fed guy knocking on someone's door and interviewing them, and/or them needing to submit paperwork to show this is indeed miles/points/cashback hobby and nothing illegal. That's not to say worst things haven't happen, but if so probably because like you said the person was somehow connected to something illegal.
P.S. Where's the dedicated thread here about such topics that you mentioned? If there is one prob best to carry this over there.
Also many if not most of us also do bank bonuses so several open/close accounts and money going in an out of accounts via ACH, so that probably adds to that.
As to how much we should be concerned, hard to say, mostly because I don't know much about the type of tabs the gov might be keeping about someone like me and repercussions that might follow down the line. For now I'll keep going.
The worst I've read here is a fed guy knocking on someone's door and interviewing them, and/or them needing to submit paperwork to show this is indeed miles/points/cashback hobby and nothing illegal. That's not to say worst things haven't happen, but if so probably because like you said the person was somehow connected to something illegal.
P.S. Where's the dedicated thread here about such topics that you mentioned? If there is one prob best to carry this over there.
Here's the BSA and IRS thread on MS
Suspicious Activity Reports to the IRS when buying or depositing money orders.
I still think if the rest of your life is as straight as an arrow, then MS all you want, and keep all your records. Your biggest risk would be an unrelated IRS tax audit and the time it takes to trace for them the funds.
I think the people who'll get inadvertently wrapped up in someone else's legal issue could be high. That's why I said, just deposit it into your account under your control. B/c no matter how much you think you know your kid or buddy, you really don't know them.
Needless to say, if you're doing something illegal on the side, then MS-ing will only draw more attention, and likely will come back and bite you hard, even if unrelated.
Parting thought: actual criminals who are laundering money knows the rules and methods more than the law enforcement and bank professionals. It's the lazy/stupid ones that get caught. I know of a few channels you can likely get away with if you're careful.
Jun 22, 2017, 9:00 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2014
Programs: Hilton - Diamond, IHG - Spire Amb
Posts: 901
I consider myself a small MSer, and I've done 120k+ for the 1st half of the year. Recently I've been doing 8k MO at WM and then depositing them in person at the teller at my local credit union 8k or whatever I have at a time. A couple years ago I had questions about why, and I mentioned aa miles for vacations. Haven't had questions for a few years
Jun 22, 2017, 9:19 pm
#43
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 59
I consider myself a small MSer, and I've done 120k+ for the 1st half of the year. Recently I've been doing 8k MO at WM and then depositing them in person at the teller at my local credit union 8k or whatever I have at a time. A couple years ago I had questions about why, and I mentioned aa miles for vacations. Haven't had questions for a few years
Jun 23, 2017, 5:58 am
#44
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,837
Jun 23, 2017, 9:00 am
#45
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 59
i was wondering whether cc companies monitor activities across all your open accounts as a whole, or monitor them separately?