the luxury hotels of Venice
Nov 14, 2018, 12:27 pm
#46
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Nov 14, 2018, 12:31 pm
#47
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owner has 2 choices - fee to cancel , stop paying bills
(and marriott will clearly give leeway to their top owners)
there is not a single example where it could not be canceled
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxu...l#post26600688
that is 16 FS list. also RC, MO, PH, list goes on.
also kind of interesting re deflags >
st regis - FLL to RC , essex house now JW
RC - seoul became LM
those (and other examples) all marriott now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_Marriott_Essex_House
from above link "2003 - seattle - FS sold - fairmont - FS failed to stop termination"
same with other cases, PH aviara, setai, etc legal battle only gets fee to cancel
it is 100% marketing to claim long term contract that cant be canceled
there has not been case where owner was forced to pay management fee
st regis FLL residence owners deflagged way before merger happened
same with st regis essex house, unless starwood canceled it (why)
st regis was also not retained at lanesborough london, no owner change
(and marriott will clearly give leeway to their top owners)
there is not a single example where it could not be canceled
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxu...l#post26600688
that is 16 FS list. also RC, MO, PH, list goes on.
also kind of interesting re deflags >
st regis - FLL to RC , essex house now JW
RC - seoul became LM
those (and other examples) all marriott now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_Marriott_Essex_House
from above link "2003 - seattle - FS sold - fairmont - FS failed to stop termination"
same with other cases, PH aviara, setai, etc legal battle only gets fee to cancel
it is 100% marketing to claim long term contract that cant be canceled
there has not been case where owner was forced to pay management fee
st regis FLL residence owners deflagged way before merger happened
same with st regis essex house, unless starwood canceled it (why)
st regis was also not retained at lanesborough london, no owner change
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Nov 15, 2018 at 9:59 am
Nov 14, 2018, 2:23 pm
#48
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owner has 2 choices - pay to cancel , stop paying bills
(and marriott will clearly give leeway to their top owners)
there is not a single example where it could not be canceled
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxu...l#post26600688
and that is just FS list. also RC, MO, PH, list goes on.
also kind of interesting re deflags >
st regis - FLL to RC , essex house now JW
RC - seoul became LM
those (and other examples) all marriott now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_Marriott_Essex_House
(and marriott will clearly give leeway to their top owners)
there is not a single example where it could not be canceled
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxu...l#post26600688
and that is just FS list. also RC, MO, PH, list goes on.
also kind of interesting re deflags >
st regis - FLL to RC , essex house now JW
RC - seoul became LM
those (and other examples) all marriott now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JW_Marriott_Essex_House
Nov 15, 2018, 9:33 am
#49
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if seoul went to franchise then they did not keep management, many others have done this
i edited my last post for clarity and added another st regis deflag
if RC seoul expired then max 25 years, often PR says 80-100 years etc
extremely long list (especially since 2008) of new owners severing ties
owners have been 'forced' to pay termination fee, seems pretty common in contract law
some managers are happy as long as termination fee is paid, have seen quotes (incl below)
my poorly worded earlier point was that management company has standards, and there are things that owner is required to pay for in contract, owner can refuse to pay for anything including fees, clearly top brands will be more concerned with brand reputation after a certain point
bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/06/30/daily35.html
i had forgotten there was groundlease involved for seattle
sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-aviara-and-four-seasons-cut-ties-2010apr20-story.html
cayugahospitality.com/cayuga-admin/four-seasons-aviara-resort-case/
i edited my last post for clarity and added another st regis deflag
if RC seoul expired then max 25 years, often PR says 80-100 years etc
extremely long list (especially since 2008) of new owners severing ties
owners have been 'forced' to pay termination fee, seems pretty common in contract law
some managers are happy as long as termination fee is paid, have seen quotes (incl below)
my poorly worded earlier point was that management company has standards, and there are things that owner is required to pay for in contract, owner can refuse to pay for anything including fees, clearly top brands will be more concerned with brand reputation after a certain point
bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/06/30/daily35.html
The sides have been in arbitration for several months.
Four Seasons and the owners of a ground lease
Four Seasons Hotels Inc., which manages the 450-room property, said it has reached an agreement to end Four Seasons' 21-year management of the hotel..."compensate [FS] for the near-term value of its management contract."
Four Seasons and the owners of a ground lease
Four Seasons Hotels Inc., which manages the 450-room property, said it has reached an agreement to end Four Seasons' 21-year management of the hotel..."compensate [FS] for the near-term value of its management contract."
sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-aviara-and-four-seasons-cut-ties-2010apr20-story.html
ordered to pay compensation to Four Seasons. According to previous court documents, Four Seasons signed a 30-year contract in 1995 to manage Aviara and had three 20-year options to renew.
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Nov 15, 2018 at 3:30 pm
Nov 15, 2018, 11:20 am
#50
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As someone who deals with contracts quite often this does not seem very plausible. There may (nearly always) be ways to come out of a contract without the possibility of an ordinary termination but for excample "only" the fact I stop paying bills is often (not always!) not the cheapest.
Btw: We remove more and more from topic.
To come back to Venice: I think in general you have to decide if you wanna stay in the centre with some trade-Offs (no pools, limited facilities, often relative small rooms) or on one of the Islands which may offer this things but are out of the way or need at least a boats ride. This said prices are quite high, especially if you want to look on the Grand Canal from your room. I doubt any here frequently discussed hotel in Venice is worth the price they claim especially at high season. Nevertheless I doubt you will find many hotel rooms outside Venice with original Tiepolo frescos.....
Btw: We remove more and more from topic.
To come back to Venice: I think in general you have to decide if you wanna stay in the centre with some trade-Offs (no pools, limited facilities, often relative small rooms) or on one of the Islands which may offer this things but are out of the way or need at least a boats ride. This said prices are quite high, especially if you want to look on the Grand Canal from your room. I doubt any here frequently discussed hotel in Venice is worth the price they claim especially at high season. Nevertheless I doubt you will find many hotel rooms outside Venice with original Tiepolo frescos.....
Nov 15, 2018, 11:50 am
#51
formerly declinespecificinformatiom
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gritti was picked up by qatar and they were the ones who did renovation, same situation as excelsior milan, i think others
a few of us are only interested in one brand (aman) because theyre unlike hotels, not everyone here does 'all of the above'
for me at this point, im not sure i will ever visit that many aman.. but venice (and giri) will always remain of interest to me
independent was never a guarantee at all, but certainly for example R&C and LHW standards may have changed
a few of us are only interested in one brand (aman) because theyre unlike hotels, not everyone here does 'all of the above'
for me at this point, im not sure i will ever visit that many aman.. but venice (and giri) will always remain of interest to me
independent was never a guarantee at all, but certainly for example R&C and LHW standards may have changed
Nov 15, 2018, 11:54 am
#52
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LHW, SLH, virtuoso, etc have expensive manhattan offices too
standards everywhere have changed, R&C 1954 and LHW 1928
gates' investment team ramped up changes at FS, including nevis
back to venice >
venice rates are good value vs big box in many cities and resorts
aman furnishings are contemporary but big rooms and big new baths
going back to categories, aman entry category range 47 to 77 m2
few such frescoes even in italy, some value highly others not at all
some here like chains having possibility of recovery from corporate
standards everywhere have changed, R&C 1954 and LHW 1928
gates' investment team ramped up changes at FS, including nevis
back to venice >
venice rates are good value vs big box in many cities and resorts
aman furnishings are contemporary but big rooms and big new baths
going back to categories, aman entry category range 47 to 77 m2
few such frescoes even in italy, some value highly others not at all
some here like chains having possibility of recovery from corporate
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Nov 15, 2018 at 12:59 pm
Nov 15, 2018, 12:27 pm
#54
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friendly reminder from a moderator-- The Topic is Luxury Hotels of Venice
Please continue to enjoy discussing the Luxury Hotels of Venice.
Thanks--
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Luxury Hotels and Travel
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Luxury Hotels and Travel
Nov 15, 2018, 4:41 pm
#55
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One thing nobody seems to have mentioned is the wide disparity between rooms at the Venice Luxury properties. Staying in a base room vs a premium suite is a totally different experience.
At Gritti Palace for instance of the 82 rooms there are 10 Premier Suites including the Hemingway, Ruskin, Maugham, Guggenheim, Donghia, Volpi, Giglio, Punta della Dogana and Redentore Terrazza Suite, featuring one of the city’s only waterfront rooftop terraces.
The difference between the base rooms and Premier Suites is dramatic. Next October, for instance, a 280 SF basic room with no view goes for 1192 euro per night while the 872 SF Somerset Maugham Suite with Canal View goes for 7700 euro.
I can imagine someone who ends up in a basic room being disappointed- even at a gorgeous property like the Gritti Palace. But those who stay in Premier Suites are undoubtedly getting an ultra luxury experience.
At Gritti Palace for instance of the 82 rooms there are 10 Premier Suites including the Hemingway, Ruskin, Maugham, Guggenheim, Donghia, Volpi, Giglio, Punta della Dogana and Redentore Terrazza Suite, featuring one of the city’s only waterfront rooftop terraces.
The difference between the base rooms and Premier Suites is dramatic. Next October, for instance, a 280 SF basic room with no view goes for 1192 euro per night while the 872 SF Somerset Maugham Suite with Canal View goes for 7700 euro.
I can imagine someone who ends up in a basic room being disappointed- even at a gorgeous property like the Gritti Palace. But those who stay in Premier Suites are undoubtedly getting an ultra luxury experience.
Nov 15, 2018, 4:57 pm
#56
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increasing aman venice value, as pretty few pretty large rooms.
many complain re room size & bathroom - amans pay attention.
cant recall what number comparisons i may have done in past
for awards starwood paid almost full ADR when occupancy almost full.
dynamic rates may go down some if marriott does not do the same.
and will marriott keep same peak & holiday entry room award avail.
cant recall starwood but hilton venice has started at 3K eur per night
absolutely agree re room. some here book entry room or entry suite
many complain re room size & bathroom - amans pay attention.
cant recall what number comparisons i may have done in past
for awards starwood paid almost full ADR when occupancy almost full.
dynamic rates may go down some if marriott does not do the same.
and will marriott keep same peak & holiday entry room award avail.
cant recall starwood but hilton venice has started at 3K eur per night
absolutely agree re room. some here book entry room or entry suite
Nov 15, 2018, 5:14 pm
#57
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Nov 15, 2018, 5:52 pm
#58
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funny you opened with "Venice Luxury properties" 
as some noted, especially big variation in venice.
does apply to many (most?) destinations though, agreed
so far theres been one time i was happy with gerbil room, and i will have more such times, because of property itself. (for me when property is unlike hotel.) fortunately in venice, aman for example has no gerbil rooms
some here do pay for top suites/villas. others get upgraded (however) to them. unfortunately after certain highs one may no longer be impressed by relatively nice suites
cipriani and aman venice both have multiple overall big fans here
1200 25-38m2 deluxe
1255 26-40m2 venetian
1400 25-57m2 giglio prestige
1900 29-41m2 landmark canal - 9
2350 38-59m2 sestiere suite - 6
3350 53-81m2 serenissima - 6
3950 80-111m2 heritage - 2
6200 67-82m2 patron corner - 4
7200 92m2 canal / pisani
_____ 76m2 redentore
7700 81m1 royal / maugham
9340 92m2 presidential / hemingway (5 night minimum online)
aman
1450 47-77m2 palazzo bedroom > 5200 97m2 grand canal suite
vs
3350 53-81m2 serenissima - 6 (and m2 is divided by suite wall)
as some noted, especially big variation in venice.
does apply to many (most?) destinations though, agreed
so far theres been one time i was happy with gerbil room, and i will have more such times, because of property itself. (for me when property is unlike hotel.) fortunately in venice, aman for example has no gerbil rooms
some here do pay for top suites/villas. others get upgraded (however) to them. unfortunately after certain highs one may no longer be impressed by relatively nice suites
cipriani and aman venice both have multiple overall big fans here
1255 26-40m2 venetian
1400 25-57m2 giglio prestige
1900 29-41m2 landmark canal - 9
2350 38-59m2 sestiere suite - 6
3350 53-81m2 serenissima - 6
3950 80-111m2 heritage - 2
6200 67-82m2 patron corner - 4
7200 92m2 canal / pisani
_____ 76m2 redentore
7700 81m1 royal / maugham
9340 92m2 presidential / hemingway (5 night minimum online)
aman
1450 47-77m2 palazzo bedroom > 5200 97m2 grand canal suite
vs
3350 53-81m2 serenissima - 6 (and m2 is divided by suite wall)
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; Dec 3, 2018 at 4:50 pm
Nov 22, 2018, 11:23 am
#60
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