The Miles and More Forum Lounge Thread Everybody is Welcome! [older now closed]
Jan 21, 2009, 4:55 am
#5011
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A Sight For Roll Eyes
Programs: :enrolleyes:+, :drτleyes:
Posts: 5,461
Jan 21, 2009, 7:49 am
#5012
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold
Posts: 6,913
Well let my try to elaborate my argument: Apart from the normal fare price we have several different fares and discounts at the moment: BahnCard 25, BahnCard 50, BahnCard 100, Sparpreis 25, Sparpreis 100, Dauerspezial, several group discounts, Sparnight for City Night Line Trains and other promotional fare. This complex fare structure was introduced back in 2001/02 by former LH marketing and sales people. The main argument for this diverse fare structure was the ability to better control the capacity utilisation. The result is that they force people to book way in advance if they want to get a decent fare - similar to air transportation.
There are two major problems: Firstly compared to air travel the DB fare structure is not transparent. If you want to book a flight you just check via your preferred tool and get all information you need. Now try to find a good DB fare. It'll take you virtually hours and you can't be sure that you still pay too much.
Secondly rail-bound transport is no air transportation and will never be! So DB should stop to compete with air travel and start to focus on its strength. IMHO the unique selling point of rail-bound transport was flexibility. In former times there was no need to book month in advance. When I wanted to go from FRA to BER I just went to the railway station, bought a ticket and boarded a train. If I missed a train I could simply take the next one without any problems. Now that they introduced this no refundable tickets and all this promo-fares all this flexibility is gone. If I need to book month in advance and I can also look for cheap tix with LH and AB.
If you want I am willing to present some more detailed arguments but actually I realise that the whole DB topic makes me
Cheers,
totti
There are two major problems: Firstly compared to air travel the DB fare structure is not transparent. If you want to book a flight you just check via your preferred tool and get all information you need. Now try to find a good DB fare. It'll take you virtually hours and you can't be sure that you still pay too much.
Secondly rail-bound transport is no air transportation and will never be! So DB should stop to compete with air travel and start to focus on its strength. IMHO the unique selling point of rail-bound transport was flexibility. In former times there was no need to book month in advance. When I wanted to go from FRA to BER I just went to the railway station, bought a ticket and boarded a train. If I missed a train I could simply take the next one without any problems. Now that they introduced this no refundable tickets and all this promo-fares all this flexibility is gone. If I need to book month in advance and I can also look for cheap tix with LH and AB.
If you want I am willing to present some more detailed arguments but actually I realise that the whole DB topic makes me
Cheers,
totti
Jan 21, 2009, 8:44 am
#5013
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
..If the lady has a ticket, kiddies up to a certain age can ride for free. The lady most likely was willing to buy a ticket, but was unable (see before). In the glory past you could easily purchase a ticket in the train. This is over and people are send out.
In any case it is totally unacceptable to send out a parent and then let the train go. Totally unacceptable IMHO, whatever the issue with the ticket was.
In any case it is totally unacceptable to send out a parent and then let the train go. Totally unacceptable IMHO, whatever the issue with the ticket was.
While the policy is terrible - no doubts about that - which parent would alight the train and leave the younglings aboard. Even if told so by a misinformed train security dude???
I have a hard time to buy and sympathise with the account, to be honest.
Jan 21, 2009, 9:15 am
#5014
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: FRA
Programs: LH, Avis, Hyatt, ...
Posts: 4,213
Same with the SBB ... but I still don't get it - so the kids were no customers either and hence were not entitled to stay on the train either.
While the policy is terrible - no doubts about that - which parent would alight the train and leave the younglings aboard. Even if told so by a misinformed train security dude???
I have a hard time to buy and sympathise with the account, to be honest.
While the policy is terrible - no doubts about that - which parent would alight the train and leave the younglings aboard. Even if told so by a misinformed train security dude???
I have a hard time to buy and sympathise with the account, to be honest.
I know one recent case however, where a mum had a ticket and was "just" send out to put a "used stamp" on it on the outside stampers. During these 30 seconds the train closed the doors and went away. Kids inside. Why the hell couldn't they just put a stamp or mark or whatever inside the train on that ticket?
Anyway, this discussion leads to nothing. I'm happy in Switzerland on my running routes: ZRH-Chur, ZRH-Bern, ZRH-Lucerne. Very nice train system and almost always on time (delay <1 minute). Whenever I use the train in Germany aside the FRA-CGN and FRA-Munich routes it ends in a disaster like for most of my friends (Aside one I must admit, who is happy but he is always only on the FRA-Munich and FRA-Bremen routes).
Jan 21, 2009, 9:44 am
#5015
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold
Posts: 6,913
Apart from our small DB discussion here you may want to check out the brand new European Rail Travel forum.
Jan 21, 2009, 10:59 am
#5016
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A Sight For Roll Eyes
Programs: :enrolleyes:+, :drτleyes:
Posts: 5,461
Well let my try to elaborate my argument: Apart from the normal fare price we have several different fares and discounts at the moment: BahnCard 25, BahnCard 50, BahnCard 100, Sparpreis 25, Sparpreis 100, Dauerspezial, several group discounts, Sparnight for City Night Line Trains and other promotional fare. This complex fare structure was introduced back in 2001/02 by former LH marketing and sales people. The main argument for this diverse fare structure was the ability to better control the capacity utilisation. The result is that they force people to book way in advance if they want to get a decent fare - similar to air transportation.
There are two major problems: Firstly compared to air travel the DB fare structure is not transparent. If you want to book a flight you just check via your preferred tool and get all information you need. Now try to find a good DB fare. It'll take you virtually hours and you can't be sure that you still pay too much.
Secondly rail-bound transport is no air transportation and will never be! So DB should stop to compete with air travel and start to focus on its strength. IMHO the unique selling point of rail-bound transport was flexibility. In former times there was no need to book month in advance. When I wanted to go from FRA to BER I just went to the railway station, bought a ticket and boarded a train. If I missed a train I could simply take the next one without any problems. Now that they introduced this no refundable tickets and all this promo-fares all this flexibility is gone. If I need to book month in advance and I can also look for cheap tix with LH and AB.
If you want I am willing to present some more detailed arguments but actually I realise that the whole DB topic makes me
Cheers,
totti
There are two major problems: Firstly compared to air travel the DB fare structure is not transparent. If you want to book a flight you just check via your preferred tool and get all information you need. Now try to find a good DB fare. It'll take you virtually hours and you can't be sure that you still pay too much.
Secondly rail-bound transport is no air transportation and will never be! So DB should stop to compete with air travel and start to focus on its strength. IMHO the unique selling point of rail-bound transport was flexibility. In former times there was no need to book month in advance. When I wanted to go from FRA to BER I just went to the railway station, bought a ticket and boarded a train. If I missed a train I could simply take the next one without any problems. Now that they introduced this no refundable tickets and all this promo-fares all this flexibility is gone. If I need to book month in advance and I can also look for cheap tix with LH and AB.
If you want I am willing to present some more detailed arguments but actually I realise that the whole DB topic makes me
Cheers,
totti
However, theory and common practice suggest that this is the profit maximizing way of doing things. Mind you, not only in the transportations industry: Utilities (water, electricity, gas companies), telecommunication companies, etc. price exactly like that for many years now...
Jan 21, 2009, 12:47 pm
#5017
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
..However, theory and common practice suggest that this is the profit maximizing way of doing things. Mind you, not only in the transportations industry: Utilities (water, electricity, gas companies), telecommunication companies, etc. price exactly like that for many years now...
?It is the appropriate scheme (or scam depending on the angle if view) for providers which managed to established a pseudo-monopoly or a cartel on a certain set of services.
If an airline is the only one to fly a mid/longhaul route and the authorities have no grip on cracking down on the pricing scheme, then this sure is one of the more optimal extortion plans.
But BD which already faces a very potent competitor called car .. I dunno. Would you put up with all the crap LH agents tell you, the mess in FRA if you could drive FRA-ATH the same amount of time at a comparable price?
Of course tastes vary in that regard but many people have made their choice seeing the new fare constructs.
Jan 21, 2009, 1:17 pm
#5018
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: So Fla & NYC
Programs: DL DM/2MM, UA MM, BV LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 23,766
Well, most of your points focus on why consumers won't like those "new" pricing schemes, resembling to those in the airline industry.
However, theory and common practice suggest that this is the profit maximizing way of doing things. Mind you, not only in the transportations industry: Utilities (water, electricity, gas companies), telecommunication companies, etc. price exactly like that for many years now...
However, theory and common practice suggest that this is the profit maximizing way of doing things. Mind you, not only in the transportations industry: Utilities (water, electricity, gas companies), telecommunication companies, etc. price exactly like that for many years now...
Jan 21, 2009, 2:48 pm
#5019
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: ZRH / MUC / VIE
Programs: M&M basic / happy Wizzair+ user :-)
Posts: 6,490
As andre1970 says, these "demand pricing" structures have been put into place by many companies and the apparent ease of use and the feelings of fair play and transparency transmitted when they are used is a function of the skill of the IT guys who develop the systems (and of the instructions they have received from the top).
The problem is that German trains are not reliable at all, that connections don't work, that first class coaches are often missing (!). And if a connection doesn't work, all seat reservations for ulterior trains become obsolete.
Due to the fact that a lot of side tracks are removed, a single delay can break down the whole system. There is no staff on a lot of stations and trains, finding a contact person when something get wrong is often an an impossible thing.
And when CEO Mehdorn always says that the Deutsche Bahn AG is "the best railway in Europe", I could not only puke my guts out - as a former employee of the Swiss railway industry (actually located in Germany) I even consider this as an absolute sneer against all Swiss railwaymen.
Anyway, the typical passenger of Mehdorn's dreams is a guy with an executive-consultant face and an inborned cellphone, sitting in an ICE in 1. Class at 300km/h (to any destination - main issue is 300km/h) doing his pseudo-important work with a bootlicking smile.
Jan 21, 2009, 7:01 pm
#5020
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
As andre1970 says, these "demand pricing" structures have been put into place by many companies and the apparent ease of use and the feelings of fair play and transparency transmitted when they are used is a function of the skill of the IT guys who develop the systems (and of the instructions they have received from the top).
The Saturday night rule is the epitome of a rip off (that is before Vodafone came into existence). They are terrible instruments from a the perspective that we as customers have a relatively good idea what the value of a product is.
Jan 22, 2009, 1:15 am
#5021
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FRA
Programs: LH SEN+, UA 1k, AA Plat, Solitaire PPS, BA Silver, :rolleyes:, :eek:
Posts: 2,679
Not to forget the endless stupidity one has to listen to in case of any delay.In weeks I've had to take the train too often (i.e. more than zero times) I sometimes think of using LH on e.g. FRA-DUS.
Jan 22, 2009, 1:20 am
#5022
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FRA
Programs: LH SEN+, UA 1k, AA Plat, Solitaire PPS, BA Silver, :rolleyes:, :eek:
Posts: 2,679
Jan 22, 2009, 4:49 am
#5023
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: GVA
Programs: LH KL PC
Posts: 393
Just sent a small question by email to LH using the form on the M&M site.
This is the reply I got :
I'm FTL. Is LH hiding something from me ?
This is the reply I got :
Dear HON Circel member,
Thank you for your e-mail. Our Miles & More Service Team will handle your
request under the incident number xxx.
We will answer your request as soon as possible!
Your Miles & More Service Team
Thank you for your e-mail. Our Miles & More Service Team will handle your
request under the incident number xxx.
We will answer your request as soon as possible!
Your Miles & More Service Team
I'm FTL. Is LH hiding something from me ?
Last edited by ms1664; Jan 22, 2009 at 5:05 am
Jan 22, 2009, 4:56 am
#5024
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A Sight For Roll Eyes
Programs: :enrolleyes:+, :drτleyes:
Posts: 5,461
It is the appropriate scheme (or scam depending on the angle if view) for providers which managed to established a pseudo-monopoly or a cartel on a certain set of services.
If an airline is the only one to fly a mid/longhaul route and the authorities have no grip on cracking down on the pricing scheme, then this sure is one of the more optimal extortion plans.
If an airline is the only one to fly a mid/longhaul route and the authorities have no grip on cracking down on the pricing scheme, then this sure is one of the more optimal extortion plans.
People are different, have different needs (as you correctly point out), and thus they are/should be willing to pay a different price for a (seemingly identical) good/service.
Did you ever feel that legacy carriers, mobile phone companies, and the likes charge a fair price???
The Saturday night rule is the epitome of a rip off (that is before Vodafone came into existence). They are terrible instruments from a the perspective that we as customers have a relatively good idea what the value of a product is.
The Saturday night rule is the epitome of a rip off (that is before Vodafone came into existence). They are terrible instruments from a the perspective that we as customers have a relatively good idea what the value of a product is.
As far as "fair" is concerned your argument cuts both ways
: a leisure traveler (who has fixed his vacation plans since the French Revolution) finds it more fair to pay less for a airplane seat than a businessman who will end-up sitting next to him after having changed his ticket 3 million times. So does the airline (maybe a lil bit self-servingly) ! But I'll be honest with you: So do I ! (so monitor, there's two of us! )
Originally Posted by weero
Would you put up with all the crap LH agents tell you, the mess in FRA if you could drive FRA-ATH the same amount of time at a comparable price?
Jan 22, 2009, 5:32 am
#5025
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
Just sent a small question by email to LH using the form on the M&M site.
This is the reply I gotear HON Circel member,
Thank you for your e-mail. Our Miles & More Service Team will handle your
request under the incident number xxx.
We will answer your request as soon as possible!
Your Miles & More Service Team
I'm FTL. Is LH hiding something from me ?
This is the reply I got
ear HON Circel member,Thank you for your e-mail. Our Miles & More Service Team will handle your
request under the incident number xxx.
We will answer your request as soon as possible!
Your Miles & More Service Team
I'm FTL. Is LH hiding something from me ?
Not really - after all there is no such thing as an "HON circel" ... so they didn't give anything away, technically
.