Mar 24, 2015, 6:09 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
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- Please discuss confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
- General discussions of the "culture" of Germanwings -- including attitudes towards sickness -- can now be found on this thread, whose opening post was split off of this one: What is the Germanwings sickness attitude/culture like?
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4U9525 Moderator team: totti, oliver2002, NewbieRunner, starflyergold, DownUnderFlyer, cblaisd, TWA884
============================================
Germanwings Flight 4U 9525 (Barcelona - Dusseldorf) crashed on 24 March 2015, coming down in the Alps near Barcelonette France
Aircraft involved is Airbus A320 reg D-AIPX. It was delivered to Lufthansa in 1991 and passed to Germanwings in 2001. It received routine maintenance at DUS the day before the crash (performed by Lufthansa Technik) and had its last major overhaul ( C-Check) in the summer of 2013. Lufthansa have said the plane was in 'perfect' condition.
Circumstances
It is very likely that the aircraft was deliberately crashed by the co-pilot Andreas Lubwitz
As per Germanwings press conference held 1400 on 24th March:
The aircraft flew from DUS to BCN on the morning of the crash
The flight left BCN at 1001 local time, it reached crusing altitude of 38000 at 1045 but remained there for only one minute before beginning a descent which lasted 8 minutes and ended in the crash.
ATC permission was not asked for the descent and it is unclear whether or not the crew were in ATC contact and under what circumstances an emergency was declared.
Subsequent reports suggest there was no communication between the crew and ATC after the aircraft began to descend.
The weather was good at the time of the crash:
Surface weather near where they started the descent:
METAR LFTH 240800Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/08 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240830Z AUTO 07012KT 9999 NSC 15/09 Q1008
METAR LFTH 240900Z AUTO 08016KT 9999 FEW035 SCT130 15/08 Q1008
That's basically unrestricted visibility at the surface.
Posted by Captainmiles Post #156 in this thread
US govt sources say no evidence of terrorism (reported on sky news uk)
Germanwings/Lufthansa official response
Germanwings press conference announced for 1500 local time, to be held in Cologne
Press conference reports: Lufthansa group employees enroute to crash site, families of victims being informed, crisis center set up at DUS airport
New flight number have been announced
4U9440 DUS0645 0855BCN EQV
4U9441 BCN0935 1155DUS EQV
Relatives of victims have been transported to the crash area by Lufthansa
Lufthansa press conference held at 1330 GMT on 26 March stated that the plane was most likely brought down deliberately by the co-pilot.
Video recording of the press conference (26 March):
In German
In English (simultaneous translation)
Victims
Latest reports are 144 passengers and 6 crew aboard, Spanish government report 45 Spanish nationals, French government reports 0 French nationals, German government reports there are some German victims but numbers not known (German wings press conference reports 67), Sky News UK reports Turkish nationals on board. There were 2 babies, one of the belonging to a woman from Manchester and the other is German, the child of opera singer Maria Radner who was travelling on the flight with her husband.
Two of the victims were Australians - a mother and her adult son from Victoria.
Two victims from Argentina
Three from Great Britain
One Israeli
Two Colombians
One Belgian
One Dutch
Two Iranians
Three Americans
Two Japanese
Three Mexicans
The German victims include 16 pupils and 2 teachers from Joseph Koenig Gymnasium (high school) at Haltern Am See, they were returning from an exchange visit to Spain.
Crew comprised 4 cabin crew and 2 flight deck. The captain had been with Lufthansa group for 10 years and had over 6000 hours on this plane type.
The co-pilot is widely reported to have joined Germanwings straight out of training in 2013 and to have had 630 hours of experience.
French rescue services believe there are no survivors.
Emergency contact numbers
From Germany 0800 1133 5577
From Spain 902 400 012
0049 30 5000 3000
The names of the victims will be published once their families have been informed.
Crash site
The crash site has been identified by helicopters, it is not accessible by road and is around 2 and a half hours walk from the nearest road (reported Sky News UK). It is at an altitude of around 2000m. Search and rescue teams are en-route. There may be an avalanche risk which could hamper rescue efforts. Rescuers are assembling at Seyne-Les-Alpes.
Sky news UK are reporting that a helicopter has landed near the crash site. They have confirmed no survivors and have reported the largest piece of debris to be about car sized. The debris field is about 200 square meters in size. See also http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24557269-post183.html
Investigation - confirmed information
Large numbers of French investigators are on site, efforts have been made to secure the site against outside interference.
The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) has been recovered and taken for investigation at French BEA. It is damaged but functional. Voices can be heard on the recording but it is unclear if they are those of the flight crew.
BEA is working in cooperation with German BFU (Bundesstelle fr Flugunfalluntersuchung), Airbus and CFM.
The aircraft was complete until impact - there was no midair breakup
"Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France"
New York Times reports that one of the two pilots was locked out of the cockpit during the descent: You can hear he is trying to smash the door down. http://nyti.ms/1HC7g9i
French prosecuters believe that the crash was caused by the deliberate actions of the co-pilot, he is thought to have locked the captain out of the cockpit and then to have deliberately crashed the aircraft.
Video of cockpit operation and manual override switch to block door from being opened externally. From The Guardian.
A locked door is opened by a flight crew inside the cockpit but can also be unlocked by cabin crew entering a keycode from the outside. Crew inside the cockpit can manually override it to keep a door locked for up to five minutes.
On 6 May 2015, the BEA released its preliminary report.
Reliable Sources
AV Herald page on the crash.
FlightRadar24 flight path map
flightware tracking log
BBC News "What we know so far"
Germanwings / 4U 9525 A320 Alpine plane crash 24 Mar 2015
Mar 30, 2015, 1:42 pm
#991
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What will be important in the aftermath is to bring about an atmosphere where staff can openly talk about their problems and worries without abject fear of their future. That does not mean letting them pilot planes necessarily but compassion and care goes a long way to helping depression. More work to be done in the aviation industry, not just for LH but also the carriers who lost planes in not dissimilar circumstances.
Mar 30, 2015, 3:59 pm
#992
Moderator: Asiana & Qantas Frequent Flyer
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This is extremely important. This should serve as a warning not to stigmatize mental health and to promote an open environment where employees can bring up the subject and be treated fairly by their employer. It's in our best interest, as airline customers, that crew members experiencing any mental health issues makes them known to their employer instead of bottling up until he/she can't deal with them any more.
Mar 30, 2015, 4:30 pm
#993
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This is extremely important. This should serve as a warning not to stigmatize mental health and to promote an open environment where employees can bring up the subject and be treated fairly by their employer. It's in our best interest, as airline customers, that crew members experiencing any mental health issues makes them known to their employer instead of bottling up until he/she can't deal with them any more.
Getting back to the case of the co-pilot at Germanwings, it seems pretty obvious why he was hiding his illnesses to his employer. Now, I am not familiar with the policy or the culture of 4U/LH, but let's say they have a reasonably supportive environment - then would any of you be comfortable to advise your employer that you have serious mental problems and you often thought about suicide if you were in a similar situation as this co-pilot? I think not, unless you are ready to kiss your pilot career goodbye. At best, if the employer was reasonably humane, they will highly encourage you to switch to a ground operation role. Even then, some people will still be uncomfortable to have you around because you would look like a walking bomb to them and eventually, chances are, you will be forced out of the industry all together.
If there is a way to create a more open environment for employees to open up a dialogue with their employer regarding mental health problem, I am all for it but I don't see how that can be done. The reality of corporate environment is such that nobody is going to let you fly a commercial airplane knowing that you have serious mental issues. This is a very delicate situation, and forget about corporate considerations for a moment, how do we go forward from this tragedy, meaning how do we balance the very important goal of public safety vs. pilot's rights as a worker and his/her privacy?
Last edited by Guava; Mar 30, 2015 at 4:37 pm
Mar 30, 2015, 4:57 pm
#994
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 206
I've been thinking for a while that I'm not sure, in the event, that I could have sorted who was the good guy and who was the bad guy in the short time available - e.g., on what side of the door he was on - e.g., whether to trust the four bars beating on the door, or to tackle them. Especially if I started to become aware when he was beating on the door and yelling. It would have been clear soon enough? I dunno. And if there was an ax involved? And if there were different conclusions by different passengers? Also, not sure what this says about some of the suggestions heretofore re the door and other last ditch security measures as we think about "the next time".
However I'm sure the cabin crew would be able to explain to any passenger that the co-pilot had seized the aircraft and they needed help trying to break down the door.
Mar 30, 2015, 5:03 pm
#995
Join Date: May 2014
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I think the affected individual also has the responsibility to judge the merits of certain career choices through the prism of their condition. Even in our day and age, where flying is a far more mundane job than 40-50 years ago, it is still a job placing significant demands on people in terms of reliability and resiliance. It's not for everyone and if you struggle with mental stability then it probably isn't for you.
I've seen people fold in the relative pressure cooker of corporate management. I found promoting such people - from whom I knew that they had significant personal issues - quite troubling. While nobody crashes into a mountain, damaged/burned careers are not a pretty sight either and obviously managers significantly influence careers other than their own.
It is perhaps understandable but also very selfish to pursue a demanding career path if you struggle to keep it together on a much more basic level.
I've seen people fold in the relative pressure cooker of corporate management. I found promoting such people - from whom I knew that they had significant personal issues - quite troubling. While nobody crashes into a mountain, damaged/burned careers are not a pretty sight either and obviously managers significantly influence careers other than their own.
It is perhaps understandable but also very selfish to pursue a demanding career path if you struggle to keep it together on a much more basic level.
Mar 30, 2015, 5:07 pm
#996
Moderator Hilton Honors, Travel News, West, The Suggestion Box, Smoking Lounge & DiningBuzz
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Reminder:
Please confine general discussion of German or European medical practices or general information/perspective on mental health issues to a thread elsewhere that you may find by searching or may wish to start in an appropriate forum.
Thank you,
TWA884
On behalf of the moderating team
Thank you,
TWA884
On behalf of the moderating team
Thank you.
cblaisd
For the moderation team
Last edited by cblaisd; Mar 30, 2015 at 5:39 pm
Mar 31, 2015, 3:53 am
#997
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Allianz assessed the cost of crash for the pool of insurers: 300 M USD.
It includes the loss of the hull (6.5 M USD), SAR operations and victims' indemnisation.
source: www.challenges.fr
It includes the loss of the hull (6.5 M USD), SAR operations and victims' indemnisation.
source: www.challenges.fr
Last edited by bodory; Apr 1, 2015 at 7:55 am Reason: USD instead of EUR
Mar 31, 2015, 4:22 am
#998
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Allianz assessed the cost of crash for the pool of insurers: 300 MEUR.
It includes the loss of the hull (6.5 MEUR), SAR operations and victims' indemnisation.
source: www.challenges.fr
It includes the loss of the hull (6.5 MEUR), SAR operations and victims' indemnisation.
source: www.challenges.fr
Is there any theoretical/practical possibility that insurers could refuse to cover costs?
Mar 31, 2015, 4:37 am
#999
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This all depends on the contract LH has with the insurers. We could speculate here till the cows come home but unless someone has intimite knowledge of this we won't be able to say much.
Mar 31, 2015, 4:54 am
#1000
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
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Do insurers cover this type of case? I am not familiar with aviation industry insurance, but did not congress in 2001 erected special law to limit liability of airlines and insurers?
Is there any theoretical/practical possibility that insurers could refuse to cover costs?
Is there any theoretical/practical possibility that insurers could refuse to cover costs?
Mar 31, 2015, 5:18 am
#1001
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,758
Even with the insurance, I am sure LH are still losing a lot of money because of this crash. For example, it is still very prominent on their website:
In many ways I admire their openness, however I am sure they have lost bookings because of this.
Information on Flight Germanwings 4U 9525
Everyone at Germanwings and Lufthansa is deeply shocked and saddened. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the passengers and crew members of Germanwings flight 4U 9525.
Lufthansa and Germanwings have set up telephone hotlines. The numbers 00800 11 33 55 77 (from Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Luxemburg), 900 838 450 (from Spain), 0800 014 8904 (from UK), 0 800 909 095 (from France) or +1 407 362 0632 (international, toll) are available to passengers’ relatives involved for care and assistance.
Everyone at Germanwings and Lufthansa is deeply shocked and saddened. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the passengers and crew members of Germanwings flight 4U 9525.
Lufthansa and Germanwings have set up telephone hotlines. The numbers 00800 11 33 55 77 (from Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Luxemburg), 900 838 450 (from Spain), 0800 014 8904 (from UK), 0 800 909 095 (from France) or +1 407 362 0632 (international, toll) are available to passengers’ relatives involved for care and assistance.
Mar 31, 2015, 5:48 am
#1002
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Either way, the reinsurance market and the dynamic between the airlines and insurance companies in seeking out policies probably tells us all we need to know about whether an event such as this is ordinarily covered. It's most probably covered, unless the airline is considered to have been grossly negligent relative to industry practice. That said, it's well possible that the insurance company and airline will be in negotiations about the final settlement between the insurer and insured under whatever applicable insurance policies Lufthansa has bought.
Mar 31, 2015, 7:30 am
#1003
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This is a 1:100 Million event. There sometimes is nothing that could have been done to foresee such rare occurrence. Hindsight is 20/20, and not even all the time, at that.
LH has handled this far better than could have been expected, so far.
LH has handled this far better than could have been expected, so far.
Mar 31, 2015, 7:45 am
#1004
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Lufthansa cancels its 60 year anniversary celebrations
Out of respect for the crash victims of flight 4U9525 Lufthansa is canceling the originally planned festivities for the 60th anniversary of the company, which was planned for the 15th of April, 2015.
Instead of the originally planned anniversary event, Lufthansa will provide a live broadcast for its employees, of the official state ceremony in the Cologne Cathedral on the 17th of April 2015, where the bereaved families and friends will gather to remember the victims.
Instead of the originally planned anniversary event, Lufthansa will provide a live broadcast for its employees, of the official state ceremony in the Cologne Cathedral on the 17th of April 2015, where the bereaved families and friends will gather to remember the victims.
Mar 31, 2015, 8:35 am
#1005
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I've been thinking for a while that I'm not sure, in the event, that I could have sorted who was the good guy and who was the bad guy in the short time available - e.g., on what side of the door he was on - e.g., whether to trust the four bars beating on the door, or to tackle them. Especially if I started to become aware when he was beating on the door and yelling. It would have been clear soon enough? I dunno. And if there was an ax involved? And if there were different conclusions by different passengers? Also, not sure what this says about some of the suggestions heretofore re the door and other last ditch security measures as we think about "the next time".
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...n-sues-airline
I am bringing this here only as an example of a case where the pilot was locked out, and the co-pilot landed the plane - NOT to discuss the merits of the JetBlue case here. The FlyerTalk thread is here for that...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/jetbl...s-airline.html
I honestly did not know of the incident or case when I posted the above.