LufthansaFlyer

They are doing it simply because the route is not profitable and JFK is a poor *A hub. EWR is far better option in NYC for LH considering UA presence.

N1003U

What! Say it isn't so! LH abandoning JFK!!??

FRA/JFK is not profitable? Really? Wow. 2 flights per day for so many years, and they have been losing money? (I assume if the route is not profitable it must not have been for quite some time, as pricing has not changed significantly in the past few years at least). Or have loads deteriorated significantly in the recent past (I haven't noticed, but I fly this route less often than I used to)? LH can't make a route 7 hours from their biggest hub to the airport closest to the biggest financial and business center in the Americas (and one of the biggest in the world) work?

The onward connection argument with UA I might buy, but OTOH, there is already IAD, IAH, ORD, and DEN (and even SFO) for *A connections.

EWR is in general not more convenient to reach from NYC than JFK (at least from most places in NYC not on Staten Island). I wonder what would stimulate LH to give up such a good position at JFK or why they can't compete from there.

Is LH getting a better deal from the Port Authority to use EWR than they do from JFK, or are new competitors are killing their loads ex-JFK? I suppose there are probably other carriers who wouldn't taking over the prime spot LH has in T1 at JFK. Or maybe there are simply a lot of LH customers in New Jersey...

I find it a little kit difficult to follow why JFK is suddenly so unattractive as a destination for LH that they want to drop it from their schedule. If LH is really abandoning JFK, does this mean they are going to rename -MH as the "Newark"...?

I must be some information missing here...

JC Gold

It's a shame because I find the ground experience at JFK superior. Even though I live in NJ I almost always fly out JFK. I can see how the hub issue can exist since both Delta and AA have a strong/somewhat strong presence there, but if AF can support 3 777's and an A380 in Feb, surely LH can support more than a single A340 to their main hub?

N1003U

+1. O&D with LH at JFK is a great experience.

I am finding it hard to buy the *A connection argument. There must be something else at play here. To give up what seems to be decent traffic and a prime spot at JFK. Maybe LH prefers I help SQ fill their A380? (do they codeshare with SQ?)

Sadly, LH404/405 is ideal for me between FRA and NYC. Any suggestions for a JFK/FRA alternative late afternoon (ex-FRA)/late evening (ex-JFK) flight when/if this flight goes away?

SuperFlyBoy

It's simple, really: EK, EY, QR, TK - all fly to JFK.

None of them fly to EWR.

LH is taking the easy way out and going for the non-competitive (against the ME airlines - as they don't fly to EWR...yet) option.

JVPhoto

EWR is vastly easier to access for a majority of us that live in Manhattan.

FollowTheSun

So that's how rumours work, huh? Any source for what you're saying?
All that's known is that LH are reducing their JFK service in January due to seasonal low demand. http://airlineroute.net/2014/07/09/lh-frajfk-w14/

LH abandoning JFK will not happen.

N1003U

Only to be a little bit aggressive, on what basis is this claim of vastness made? Speed, convenience, cost? And for which majority in Manhattan? You certainly can't be talking about folks who live east or north in Manhattan... From midtown it is closer, and from downtown it might be different, but my midtown and Harlem experiences gives the advantage to JFK.

Based on only eight years, but with an office at 1 Penn Plaza and an apartment very close to the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel (locations from which Newark doesn't get much easier), my experience is, on average the opposite: Taxi/private car IME takes longer and costs more from Manhattan to EWR than to JFK. From Penn Plaza, it takes me on average about 45 mins to JFK by taxi, about 50 mins via LIRR/Port Authortiy (including transfer times and walk to the terminal, vs. closer to 65 mins to EWR for both modes (much of the driving difference is due to tunnel traffic). Public transit is close, but again on average I find LIRR connects to the JFK Skytrain more often and with less hassle and faster than NJT connects to the EWR Skytrain, and the LIRR trains stopping at Jamaica are more frequent that those NJT trains stopping at EWR, particularly at off-peak hours.

If one is starting from downtown, I might concede EWR is a bit easier, but in no case would I make a claim of vastness. The Holland Tunnel can also be a huge mess, especially in the direction of Manhattan at many civilized times of day. From 145th and Convent (Where Ms. N1003U lived for a couple of years--assuming you can find a cab -- JFK is the clear winner.)

I am certainly willing to listen to stories with the opposite experience, but I don't understand the claim of EWR being easier to access from Manhattan than JFK, at least not in IME. From 42nd Street and the West Side Highway (basically at the Chinese Consulate), with zero traffic, the drive time from EWR to JFK is about the same, but during the day, I consistently make to to JFK faster and (a bit, maybe $15-$20) cheaper. In the very last days of US Helicopter, you could get a $99 air transfer from TSS (34th Street) to T3 at JFK (or free with a full-J ticket on DL), which was very hard to beat if you were flying DL, but that was a desperation move just before that particular helo service folded.

Travel time/convenience aside, from curb to lounge or gate, I would call it a wash: both check-ins are close to the curb, it's a longer walk to security and the lounge at EWR, but security is often faster at EWR (IME), and the boarding gate form the lounge is a few steps closer at EWR, and they have renovated the lounge at EWR now.

EWR isn't that much worse, but I find JFK is a bit more convenient and a bit faster, especially going into Manhattan. From the W hotel in Hoboken (or a similar location), I have to admit EWR is hard to beat, but that isn't the same as starting from Manhattan.

Edit: one thing that is vastly easier at EWR is connecting with UA or AC. LH is (as of a few months ago) still selling ridiculous ridiculous connections in NYC with a UA flight arriving at EWR and an LH flight departing from JFK, without any good suggestions on how to get from on to the other (which is a whole different science). But for O&D traffic, I still find JFK a better alternative. If LH kept a late evening departure out of JFK, I might tolerate the occasional and slightly worse (IMHO) schlep to EWR.

N1003U

I certainly hope not, but for my needs, they are already canceling the wrong flight. There are already plenty of other afternoon/earlier alternatives...LH405 is the latest flight to FRA...if I am going to leave earlier, I can just as easily take SQ or a few other alternatives.

JVPhoto

9 years of flying in and out of NYC being on the UWS, Hells Kitchen and Bowery I've come to find that I can with much more certainty know what it's going to take me to get to Newark.

I can consistently make it from Astor Place to EWR in under 30 minutes. The other night when I landed at JFK after midnight it took me 55 min to get home once we were in the car. Coming from EWR with a little tunnel traffic it can take me about 45 min. But, also on two occasions flying out of JFK even leaving 2.5 hours before my flight I've had to sweat bullets worrying I was going to make it and once nearly didn't have my bag make the cut off.

And yes sorry I should have said Manhattan*.

*I'm one of those who sort of cuts it off above the 90s even though it goes much higher.

N1003U

Thanks for the good remarks. When I get back to New York, I will probably be back in Hell's Kitchen, so I may have to give EWR a fresh look (and if rumors are true and I want to fly LH, I may HAVE to... )

I will concede it is possible to get burned with traffic to JFK on occasion. I have had more than one occasion when I tempted the traffic gods and wound up dragging a check bag to be gate checked because I missed the cut-off...in the sense of travel time variance at a given time of day, EWR might be more predictable, especially once you get to the NJ side of the river...

FlyingXplorer

Why would you fly LH instead of SQ?

mmff

If your final destination in Europe is not FRA, SQ26 is not ideal because SQ has no codeshare agreements to get you elsewhere on the same ticket.

At least this is my reason not to be on SQ25/26 more often, I very rarely want to start/stay from/at FRA and separate tickets become a nightmare in case of IRROPS.

N1003U

• The later flight (LH405) often works better for me, schedule-wise.
• SQ is only sometimes less expensive.
• The SQ lie-flat hard product is for my needs not that much more comfortable/necessary on such a short overnight flight, though when I pretend I am working on-board, the extra seat width does come in handy.
• The SQ soft product is nice, but it is a different style, and IME it often collapses in case of disruptions to the SOPs.
• I do like book-the-cook, and the feature dish has never disappointed me.
• I tend to be low-maintenance and either self-entertaining or like to sleep on board, so I don't need a smiling semi-robot coming by every five minutes to re-fill my coffee of offer me another snack. On rare occasions I actually need something, I find the call-button works just as well on both airlines.
• When I have to function the next day, the FRA Welcome Lounge really helps with a convenient place to shower and get an edible breakfast before I travel onward for the rest of my workday in Germany.

I use both LH and SQ between JFK and FRA (and it looks like I might be using SQ25 more on evening flights to FRA come winter). But on balance LH meets my needs a bit better for schedule and arrival services. If LH finally installs a competitive Business Class hard product on the route, its advantage will for me be a bit larger, but hard product on shorter flights is not my highest priority (price and schedule is more important, and on these points LH has a slight but not large advantage). All else equal, I will take LH405 over SQ25 unless the price difference is significant (significant to me is ~200-300€ [10%] for a TATL ticket). If LH cuts it's JFK service permanently (as has been rumored), SQ will pick up a little extra business from me...

dj_jay_smith

According to: http://airlineroute.net/2014/07/31/lh-hnd-w14/