After reading posts as we've gone along in the LatinPass saga, something strikes me. If I were transferring from say UA to Hilton, I would allow a month before I even expected the points or felt it appropriate to check up on it with a phone call. But Latin Pass gets follow up calls fast, furious and constant. Now, I know that some of this stems from mistrust and prior problems with transfers. However, how much is self fulfilling in terms of poor service if their lines are tied up always checking up on things that, according to the 'rules' of not just LP but of virtually all FF programs, takes a month or so to get done. If I add up all the followups mentioned in LP threads and consider it against the staff it seems a lot of 'pressure' could be taken off the system by just giving these people a little time to do their jobs.
Now, before the flamethrowers come out, I am not saying LP is doing a good job, in many many respects, they are not. However, both from a selfish point of view (I want the agents free to process actual requests, not follow up all the time) and from a fairness point of view (the front line staff did not bring on the million mile promo but they have to deal with it...and...it was a great promo and in the end very rewarding) I think it is a good idea to give these folks some room to work. When I have a request I give them what I want, a range to work with, and ask when to check back. Then I call a few days after the date they gave me. I don't call on Mondays. They are uniformly nice to me, appreciative of my low-key approach, and I have gotten every single request back as a yes and when promised.

Sure, it would be great if they had real time rez, real time online account info, accepted credit cards, etc. But they didn't do any of those things when the promo started and never promised them as part of the package. I don't argue they haven't held up their in some respects, that they have taken out their frustration with their miscalculation on their customers (which is a poor thing to do since the idea of the promo was happy customers). Still, a million miles should buy them some slack, not constant indignation and complaint.

As an aside, I spent 9 months getting a one-world bonus credited on BA. Very straightforward, they had original paperwork for 6 months...sound familiar... and that 'the worlds favourite airline' with a modern computer system and plenty of staff.

I would be all in favor of a collective and reasonable approach to LP from 500K and 1000K flyers. They key is reasonable and balanced. I would focus on streamlining redemption and getting committments on consistency. Within those improvements I don't see 250K year as a overly onerous thing. And remember, if you fly them, put revenue in like a frequenty flyer typically does, you get to unlock 5X the miles... again, not unreasonable. Despite all the frustrations (and boy I was frustrated I got locked out of marriott because my bonus posted so late) I think this can be made to work fairly and respectfully of all parties.

this post was originally a reply in another thread, but really attempts to generate a new discussion, so I gave it a thread. I apologize for the cross post.

Wormwood,

I agree with your approach. As you state, many threads contain similar info.

My suggestion (open for comments):

Ask LP to:

1. Develop a PIN for each account to stop the foolish picture ID requirement.

2. Develop a policy of responding to questions sent in by email or fax within 3 business days. Would reduce phone calls which are less efficient.

3. Develop a policy to process Award requests within a reasonable timeframe, such as 7 business days. This may vary by airline as each may have different processes.

4. Review their transfer process and get it working so that transfers are posted on receivers accounts within 15 business days. If not posted, LP should agree to follow up and respond to customers within 2 business days.

5. Send out LP statements at least every 90 days.

6. Develop a Credit Card process and, if needed, add a $3 handling fee to offset any increased costs. This is easy to do and would help the overall process.

7. Keep the 250K limit policy, but allow anyone that did not use all of the 250K in prior years the ability to use the unused balance in subsequent years.

8. Keep thier Web site up to date and update the Q & A section to reduce phone calls. (there are old Award schedules that are not valid now)

9. Develop an Expedite process where once could call in and get Awards processed within 24 hours. I am usure if they can do this with all airlines, but understand they can make on the spot reservations with US Air and some member airlines. Charge a $50 fee (profit for them) which could be charged to Cr. Card (see above)

10. Form a FF user group of 3-4 people which they could have a conference call every month to get feedback and ideas for improvement.

I know many will disagree with some of the above, but thought we needed a starting point for our discussion. If I see a pattern, I will forward the consensus to LP management.

I do agree with Sapman's suggestions. I believe they would restore LP's credibility and satisfy most of the legitimate complaints. LP has complicated this, however, by setting up situations where reasonablenes and patience work against a person requesting an award. It is Latin Pass that tells us constantly to "call back next week." I did that for 9 consecutive weeks regarding a Marriott t transfer, and have now done it five more weeks regarding ticket issue. They would clearly save a lot of these call-backs by just being upfront about when they can do what. And they will save much more of their reputation by adopting Sapman's suggestions.

BTW this post is not intended as a flame, but rather as a dialogue! I hope that is clear...?



Your point is well taken; however, seven months now after the fact, my e-mail tells me that there are still quite a few folks who have not received their promotional miles, despite having complied with the documentation requirements outlined by LP. From the LP Member Guide, Pg 11, it states, "Mileage will be credited in your account within 4-6 weeks." What is clear to me is that had I not been proactive in dealing with LP by making phone calls, I would still be waiting for my miles to post. (My Latin trip cost $3,000. Why should I not check up on my investment, after a reasonable measure of time?).

In the meantime, while waiting, my miles,like everyone elses, were devalued by LP.

LP has delayed the postings, and is making program changes to avoid libility... that is the bottom line.

So RU saying that the unilateral changes suddenly imposed at LP's will are OK with you? Or, are you asking me to invest additional funds in the LP program to "free up" an additional "5X the miles", in a program that changes its rules at the drop of a peso (or in my case, at the drop of roughly $ 3,000 bucks)? I think, NOT!

BTW, I travel to Central America frequently and had it not been for this promotion, I would not ever have flown on a LP carrier. My preference is now for any LP carrier over a US carrier and had LP delivered on its promises, you could bet that I would be onboard a LP member carrier.

However, until LP resolves this matter in our favor, I will boycott ALL LP carriers! And, I would urge other FTers to do the same!

IMHO, this is really not an issue about the survival of LP, but rather about delivering on promises made. (The LP member airlines will still be around, with or without LP - and they are the ones to whom our funds were paid ).

Let's look at what has really happened here.

Only 250,000 miles can now be claimed per year (assuming no additional investment). LP miles expire every 3 years and so it will take a minimum of 4 years to use the miles. Without the investment of additional funds (in a partner to keep the account active), one has just lost 250,000 miles. That's six RT coach tickets (assuming the award levels stay the same) to Europe, GONE! (I imagine that alot of miles will ultimately be written off the books by LP as a direct result this new 250K ruling).

Let's assume that an FTer has a family of 3 and wants to go to Europe, or Africa, or Asia, in business class on KLM for that hard earned and well deserved vacation. Well, under the new rules, that's no longer possible, period! In fact, that family can no longer go anywhere in BC from the US on KLM. LP has just brought that option to a screaching halt! (Look at the mileage required for these awards and you will see what I mean).

250K may get you a fair way in coach, but it won't move you very far per year in BC (and this is especially true if you want to travel with family). Personally, I don't care to travel from the US to Asia via Europe IN COACH. Period, end of story. It's just too miserable, and I am concerned about the three new "IN" initials: DVT.

My point is that our miles have been devalued, my friend - time and time again by LP - and all of it just since June.
At first, we were stopped from transferring miles to partners and then using the miles on another carrier (LP to ACES for CO/AF tkts), then Hilton transfers were limited, then Mariott transfers were halted, and now the 250,000 mile limit per year. What's next?
Thers is no logical reason for anyone to continue to dump miles into LP.

I, for one, have been manipulated enough by Latin Pass - and I will not be led like a cow to slaughter, without going down kicking
and screaming on this one!

I ask for nothing more than that which was willingly offered, and that which I purchased. I deliver my promises to customers exactly as promised. Why shouldn't LP do the same?

Clearly, FTers all have their own agenda. But we will not win this one unless we stand together... perhaps putting pressure on the individual LATIN carriers who gobbled up our money... and possibly with the help of the press. RANDY!!!

I hope that we, as a group, will not be apathetic on this issue. Like it or not, LP is a dead cow, and we are all being led to slaughter, anyway...




[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 02-10-2001).]

I second the thoughts expressed by wormwood.

I too, have been involved in other airline's promotions, partner credits and bonuses. Time that it took for crediting was up to 6 months, and I could never even confirm with the major airlines if my information had even been received.

Before anyone decides that I am speaking for the masses, I am not. I am speaking for myself, based upon my personal experiences, prior to, and with LP. I am entitled to my own opinion.
I would encourage others, that have not posted to share their thoughts. In the business world, it is believed that a disatisfied customer tells 10 people, while out of 10 satisfied customers, they only tell one. I have followed the posts since last May, and find it odd that not nearly the number of different people continue to post. If the same people would take the time to post their status/opinions, the board could possibly start to reflect the overall situation between LP and the people involved with the promotion.
I chose to do the promotion mainly as a mileage run. I paid my money, and the airlines provided the flights as per our agreement. I did not use the flights to go on a "vacation" or "business trip." Even though I did not take full advantage of visiting the destinations included in my itinerary, that was my choice. The LP carriers still delivered me from city to city, as per the ticketing agreement. The promotion is a bonus, in addition to providing the contracted flight service. I cannot consider the MM bonus the only thing of value received-If I had more time, I could have basically seen all of Central America, and northern South America, with all my flights costing a couple thousand dollars (I have since returned to Central America on an award, and plan to go to Cuzco later this year.)
The MM bonus hugely generous. This can be evidenced by the hundreds of people that did it more or less just as a mileage run. We all know that the reason we did it was that the points could be worth many, many times the cost of the run. Due to the number of people making the run, and the value of the bonus points, I have always though that LP would have to regroup somehow, or cease to exhist. I met many people during the run over Memorial Day weekend that shared this thought. Thus, it comes as no surprise, and somewhat of a releif that they are placing some limits on point transfer and yearly use. It tells me that they are trying to stay afloat with the huge burden of bonus points on their backs. If the limitations mean that I will ultimately use the points, I am all for them.

I think that some people will be unaffected by the limits. I have seen posts by people that have had definite plans for point use that will be impossible with the limitations ( I hope that there can be some type of exception for people that need to exceed the limit for a single family vacation.)

Last friday, February 2, I claimed a business class award on United for Dec 30th, with United miles. I called the minute the flights were available on the system. The reason I called so far in advance is my previous experience with airlines, with no seats available for award travel. I first asked how many business class seats were available on the 747. Only 3 business class seats were allotted for award travel. I expected this type of allotment, as the airlines have to keep some balance between revenue, and nonrev seats to stay financially solvent. I have no knowledge of any airline imposing the type of limitations that LP has recently announced. But then again I don't know of any other bonus program that offered a million mile bonus, with such an unexpected huge response.

All bonus programs reserve the right to change program rules, or even discontinue the program. Other programs make changes that benefit some, and may have a negative impact on others. I have some friends that have been trying to claim an award with a hotel's program, but are unable to do so because the program keeps raising the required number of points required.

Although most posts I see focus on the negative, I feel it is only fair to mention 2 beneficial (although temporary) changes.
Reduced Awards Table-I did a complete printout of the LP website in February. This special offer was posted after that time, and includes some offers good for travel up to May.

Marriott Awards Transfer-some people benefited more than others (some that didn't have their million yet, received no benefit.) Although it only lasted 4 or 5 months, it was an effort by LP to add to the benefits available.

In case you are wondering about the benefits I have received, I did some transfers to Marriott last fall, claimed an award to Panama in October and to Europe in March. When my schedule is better set, I will request an award to Peru.

I am in no way trying to negate others concerns about their own experiences. Not very many people take the time to post their positive experiences, and I hope this post will add some balance.

Considering that last summer there were many more people posting, that haven't posted since then, it makes me wonder what their experience has been. For those that read the posts, and never comment personally, I would encourage you to do so. This thread deserves input from people that have not otherwise been posting.

Thank you Wormwood and RLewis for such reasonable postings. I usually read but now rarely contribute to the Latinpass forum because I always find myself shaking my head in disbelief at what I see (purely my personal opinion) as totally unreasonable attitudes that are frequently expressed here. I believe in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law and don't believe that people demanding their individual rights to basically gut the Latinpass program is in keeping with the spirit of the law. If I get one free business class ticket from North America to South America I will be content that I have got value for money from my mileage run - I expect to get more but I don't plan on suing Latinpass if I don't. I have flown 5 times on Latinpass carriers since the promotion and hopefully others are putting a bit of revenue their way so that they can see some benefit from people who did the bonus run.
And as an aside it is now 14 months since the end of the initial Iberia promotion after joining Oneworld and despite all the transactions qualifying me for the bonus points being credited to my account my emails and letters go unanswered and my account bereft of any Oneworld bonus! Whenever I have sent documentation into Latinpass I have received written acknowledgement of my letter within a fortnight and with the correct documentation always had the miles posted.

I would like to see something in the way of a family exception to the 250,000 mile rule.
Ironically I figured out my summer travel plans and was going to send in a request Friday, Feb. 9 for two business class tickets from US - Malaysia on KLM or if it were more readily available tickets on Avianca to Frankfurt and then KLM to Asia. That is at least 300,000 miles for two tickets for my wife and me.

After getting the itinerary options worked out Friday morning I hopped over to Flyertalk to learn that I can't even consider the trip until next year and then only if I take 10,000 miles in LatinPass flights before I make the request.

I can always work out a different routing, possibly starting in Europe and flying AMS-KUL, but I had spent a couple of weeks getting our plans worked out and the LP rule changes has thrown a curve into those plans.

Overall I won't mind the limitation on annual redemption if the program stays solvent. I would just hate to see many of us lose our miles because we didn't hurry up to redeem them in the first six months.



[This message has been edited by satori (edited 02-11-2001).]

I am happy to see some good dialogue and comments on the LP situation.
I agree that LP should allow a larger number (300K) of miles redeemed IF there is a family vacation to same destination and dates - especially in 2001. This will reduce the sting of someone already planning a trip and - if they were to adopt a policy of allowing miles unused below the 250K to be carried forward (my suggestion), people could build up some "excess miles" for future years. This may also be an incentive to reduce the number of miles "transfered out" in a year.

Still would appreciate any comments to my suggestions in the above post as to "What should LP do to improve program and satisfy customers."

Before reading this thread, I voiced my opinion on a previous thread, agreeing with Wormwood and Sapman. I expect to benefit greatly from this promotion in the future and had a terrific time seeing Central and South America with 4 friends doing the promotion. It's in our best interest to be willing to cut LP a little slack to keep solvant. We should work WITH LP, rather than against them. We'll all win in the end.

The concensus of these recent posts seems to be to "cut LP some slack," and in general a feeling that things at LP are fairly normal.

I do not agree, for I have not yet experienced another airline offering a bonus, finally awarding it, and then continuously changing the rules on which it was gained and through which it can be used. I do not believe this is the end of the world or a catstrophe beyond imagining... but it is neither normal, nor good for us and for Latin Pass.

Nevertheless, complaints alone are not productive. I thought Sapman's suggestions were reasonable, and could benefit both LP members and LP itself. Ia have not seen a single other post endorsing those specific suggestions. Does that mean there is no interest in them at all among LP members who did the bonus run ? If so, we have sent a message to LP to please continue to make changes and add further restrictions..

I am a person of few words - I Agree

Cut some slack
bestow some manners
enjoy the flights!

Considering the 250k/yr restriction, to placate those million milers who feel they might not have any activity in their accounts within 3 years, LP might consider extending the 36 month expiration period to 48 months. In this way, no one would be in danger of losing any miles.

With regard to the suggestion that we try to get LP to extend the 3 year miles expiration to 48 months because of the 250K limitation on using the million miles, I think that is a waste of time. All it takes to keep all of your miles active, people, is to put ONE hotel stay or ONE rental car onto your Latin Pass account. Surely everyone can manage to credit one transaction in three years to keep a huge amount of miles active. We have much bigger battles to fight than this one.

Djlawman

I am also happy to read all the positive posts, but I still have an ueasy feeling. I have not yet even received my bonusmiles, working on the assumption that not bothering them may actually speed up the process (as some other people also suggested). This does mean however, that I have now lost out on some of the benefits (like Mariott transfers). I can live with that.

But what I find more worrying now is the new limit. I had planned to use the miles to go to South America on familiy visits - I live in Europe. This is 70k miles per person (in economy!), and I have two kids which means 280k. So unless I am in a position to put more fligts/stays/car rentals on my Latinpass account, I am not even able to do this. I think that a family request for four seats is not unreasonable and is something I could reasonably expect to do without any additional qualifying effort. As a consequence I am beginning to think that Latinpass in putting in this restriction is acting unreasonably.

I will wait and see whether they will allow such an arrangement (as some other posters have also suggested). I am even prepared to request this sort of change (once I have received my miles). I sincerely hope that this will work - I don't want to speculate on anything beyond this.

ATI, I think most of us are feeling the way that you are -- a bit uneasy about the way LP seems to do things, which is in a haphazard and arbitrary manner. I was planning a vacation to Australia (from the United States), with four in our party. Let's see -- KLM at 100K per.. Oops, guess TWO of us are going to have to pay cash for the tickets. LP needs to find some way to accommodate for this situation.