Higher End Dining in Tokyo
 

There seem to be a fair number of us who will be in Tokyo this year and would like to explore dining in higher end restaurants. There are reportedly 100,000+ restaurants inTokyo - so it's hard to narrow things down. The Michelin Guide (which was not in print when I made my first and only trip) is perhaps one beginning point - but not an end point. I am starting this thread so people who've been to these restaurants can help those of us who haven't been to these restaurants make choices. Comment on choices we're thinking about - and perhaps add others to our lists.

My trip isn't until September. As of today - I have a preliminary (far from final) list of restaurants. My particular requirements were the restaurants had to serve lunch (lunch is usually our large meal of the day and we will have jet lag issues in Japan - we'll be having lighter fare at dinner if we can stay awake that late - I'll see how this thread goes and perhaps start another one about more casual restaurants later); they had to accept credit cards (I don't want to deal with large amounts of cash); and my husband and I don't care for red meat all that much (so there are no steak houses on this list). Another requirement is my husband can't sit at a totally traditional restaurant (on the ground) - although the tables with leg wells are ok.

We would like a variety of different kinds of Japanese cuisine for 6 lunches - with possibly 1 or 2 non-Japanese restaurants thrown into the mix.

Here's my preliminary list (restaurant type is from Michelin):

Daigo (Shojin)
Esaki (Japanese Contemporary)
Ginza Okuda (Japanese)
Hishinuma (Japanese)
Ichirin (Japanese)
Joel Robuchon (French Contemporary - open on Sunday)
Kikunoi (Japanese)
Kondo (Tempura)
Kyoraku-tei (Soba)
Les Creations de Narisawa (French Contemporary)
Raku-tei (Tempura)
Sushi Saito (Sushi)

All comments/suggestions from everyone (novice to expert) appreciated. Robyn

I do not know if 'higher end' requirement includes price too. If yes, welcome to 'The Rib' at Hotel New Otani - prices start around 30 000 yen per person.

P.S. Never went inside (I wish my income level or expense policy would allow to dine in places like that)

I like the direction this thread is heading. How about "insanely expensive Tokyo restaurants"? My star-fecking list would include:

1. Nanachome Kyoboshi
2. Aragawa
3. Inakaya

Of those three, I've only been to Inakaya, which was one of the biggest wastes of money food-wise I've ever engaged in. I highly recommend it to those trying to check names off a list.

Nanachome Kyoboshi I've heard very good things about, but the price level does tend to make my eyes water. Aragawa is probably no better than Dons de la Nature, which is more, ahem, modestly priced.

Price not important - one way or the other (we'd like to have great food - but are not in a race to see how fast we can empty our bank account ;)). I'll give you a hint about how to get better food for less money. It's called "lunch" in many places :). A fair number of restaurants on my list have lunch menus that are priced lower than dinner menus. For example - compare the lunch and dinner menus here:

http://http://www.robuchon.jp/joelrobuchon_menus-en

The lunches may have fewer courses - and perhaps some less expensive ingredients than you'll find at dinner - but my husband and I have in general had good experiences with lunch menus.

On the third hand - if you read the "fine print" above - my husband and I aren't big beef eaters. Perhaps someone who enjoys beef more than we do would like to explore the restaurant you mentioned. Robyn

Well, my reply had a little piece of sarcasm in it. :) I personally do not dine in any place if it would cost me >$25, because I do not believe that paying $250 for a food I'd get a food 10 times better than a dinner for $25.

I'll share some of my favorite restaurants in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka:

Tokyo:
Tempura Mikawa
Sushi Shin (Nishi-Azabu)
Sukiyabashi Jiro
Yakitori Toriyoshi (Nishi-Azabu, Akasaka Mitsuke, Ginza, Naka-Meguro)
Kikuchi Nishi-Azabu (Kaiseki counter Kappou w/one table available)
Kasumitei Matsubara Nishi-Azabu (Kaiseki counter Kappou with private dining rooms available)

Kyoto:
Gion Nanba
Gion Suetomo

Osaka:
Sfida (Italian)

Thanks for sharing.

Tempura Mikawa and and Sushi Shin sound good.

Is Kikuchi Nishi-Azabu the same as Kikuchi at 2-17-17 Nishiazabu (that's the address in the Michelin Guide). Suspect so - but just making sure. If so - for us - that's a thumbs down because it's dinner only.

Kasumitei Matsubara isn't in Michelin and doesn't seem to have an English website. Not deal breakers for sure - but could you tell me a bit about it?

With regard to any yakitori restaurant - I try to avoid all restaurants where I can make any reasonable approximation of what a restaurant makes. I do grilled chicken on sticks all the time (mostly satay - but I could do a basic yakitori too if I cared to). I like restaurant things that I absolutely/positively couldn't/wouldn't make at home - even if the restaurant version of my home cooking is 10 times better than mine (and it usually isn't - I'm a pretty decent cook).

With regard to Sukiyabashi Jiro - especially if you're talking about the one in Ginza - well there's an old gardening saying - "wrong plant - wrong place". There's a dining corollary IMO - "wrong person - wrong restaurant". I have read enough about Jiro (saw the movie too) to know that I am absolutely the wrong person for that restaurant. For starters - I eat slowly - and get full quickly. It takes time for me to digest my food (I have some GI issues). If I were forced to get down 10-12-14 pieces of sushi quickly - I would probably have GI distress. Also - when I get kind of full (not hard when I'm faced with relatively large tasting menus in various restaurants these days) - I will only eat a part of what's on my plate. At sushi restaurants - I will leave the rice - or ask the chef if he can do sashimi instead - explaining things best I can - that it is *me* and no offense to the chef. Most chefs are pretty good about this - but considering what I've read - well this restaurant would be a disaster for me. Why ask for trouble?

Also - my husband and I use lunch to sit down and "recharge our batteries" (especially my husband's bad leg). So we like to sit down for least an hour. I am not a fan of 4-5 hour meals. But - when I think "30 Minute Meal" - the only thing that comes to mind is Rachel Ray's TV show ;). Heck - our meals at home - even lunch - take more than 30 minutes.

My last 2 comments are very personal and particular to me. Doesn't mean the restaurants aren't great. Or that they're not right for other people. Just means they're not the best restaurants for me - the ones where I would enjoy myself the most. And - contrary to what some people here think - fine dining isn't about crossing places off a list - or spending the most money possible - it's about having wonderful experiences eating food you find delicious in pleasant surroundings.

I have 2 questions if you or other people here don't mind answering. The one high end sushi restaurant we went to on our first trip was Kozasa Sushi in Ginza - which - like Sushi Shin - is supposed to serve "Edomae style" sushi. What are the differences between "Edomae style" sushi and the other kind(s)? And what are the other kinds? Which should we try (or try again)? And what are the differences we should be looking for between/among the kinds?

And - do you think using the Michelin Guide makes any sense at all in Tokyo? On our first trip - we didn't use the Michelin Guide - because it hadn't been published in Japan yet. We pretty much relied on concierge recommendations and our poking around. So - for example - one tempura restaurant we had lunch at was Ippoh (restaurant floors of Barney's New York) - we just happened to stumble into it. We thought it was really good and loved the chef. OTOH - we are certainly not experts when it comes to tempura.

I honestly find the concept of dining in Tokyo somewhat overwhelming. Because Tokyo has about as many restaurants as my county has people :D. So it's tempting to use the Michelin Guide. OTOH - it seems somewhat confining and not adventurous (I'm somewhat of a food snob and don't like going down the beaten foodie tourist path). On the third hand - we'll only be in Tokyo for 7 days - and I don't want to waste time there on mediocre meals. Robyn

Yes, Kikuchi is the restaurant listed in the Michelin guide. You will have to go to dinner if you want to try it, which I highly recommend you do.

Kasumitei Matsubara has a website: http://kasumitei-matsubara.com/ They are open for lunch, but you will have an entirely different experience if you go for dinner. If you do want to go for lunch, I would suggest having your hotel concierge make a reservation for you. You could request that they serve you a full dinner course at lunch time.


To liken Yakitori to "grilled chicken on a stick" is a gross oversimplification. The yakitori at Toriyoshi and other high-end yakitori restaurants is delicious and is perfect for when you are in the mood for a casual, authentic dinner with beer, wine, or Japanese sake. Unless you have had extensive training with a japanese yakitori chef, and somehow have access to ingredients that are not generally available in the US, there is no way that you are making anything remotely close to proper yakitori.

At any sushi restaurant it would be extremely impolite to pick apart a piece of nigiri sushi, or to leave an item half eaten. There is however, absolutely nothing wrong with telling a chef to stop serving at any time if you have had enough, or to request sashimi instead of nigiri sushi. You can also request or decline grilled items, miso soup, tea, or alcoholic beverages. At most sushi restaurants the chef will adjust the pace of the meal according to how quickly or slowly one wants to eat. Before the meal begins, you will be asked if you have any food allergies or if there are any items you do not like, and the meal will be adjusted accordingly.

I agree that going to Sukiyabashi Jiro would probably be a disaster from what you describe. There are other sushi restaurants that will better meet your needs. Shin is an excellent restaurant, and some staff speak basic english. If you do go you will enjoy it very much, but please try not to pick apart any item or to leave anything half eaten. If you must do this, make sure to apologize and to explain that you need to stop eating or switch to something else.

Good hotel sushi restaurants can be very approachable, and often have at least some staff who speak fluent english. Roku-Roku at the Grand Hyatt is a very good restaurant that will be very accommodating of any special requests. Kanesaka located at the Palace hotel within Wadakura would also be a good choice. (You might want to have kaiseki or other types of food at Wadakura as well).

Sushi Tsu in Nishi-Azabu is a good restaurant where you will not have any problems communicating as one of the chefs is fluent in English. If you go for lunch, you can order a full omakase course that is the same as what you would have for dinner. This is also a good choice if you are looking for something a bit different than classic edomae sushi http://www.sushitsu.jp/


I don't rely on the Michelin guide a lot in Japan, but for anyone without significant experience in Tokyo I think it is a very good resource to use. My advice would be to use the Michelin guide in combination with advice from you hotel concierge and from flyertalk. IIRC you will be staying at FS Marunouchi or The Peninusla, so you can definitely put the concierge to work to find restaurants for you beyond their standard recommendations for tourists.

Re tempura, definitely make a point of going to Mikawa in Monzen-Nakacho or Roppongi for a full omakase course (can be served at lunch time or dinner time for the same price).

Tokyo has a lot of restaurants, but you only need to find a handful of excellent ones to have an excellent experience.

I hope this information helps and wish you a great time here in Japan.

Cheers,

Mike

Posts that are negatively judgmental about other members and make negative characterizations have been deleted for inappropriateness.

Feel free to respectfully disagree - and remember that when posting about food and personal preferences, "De gustibus non est disputandum" (Latin for "There is no disputing of tastes") is the best rule. Please read the following Flyertalk Rule, which we all agreed to abide by in return for the privileges of membership.

JDiver
senior moderator

No Ryugin? I was more impressed by the food at Ryugin than I was at Per Se (Thomas Keller restaurant in Manhattan).

Sukiyabashi Jiro Roppongi might be more to your liking if you wish to try it versus Ginza. The son's restaurant is much more laid back and one of the chefs speaks a little English.

Ryugin is another excellent choice.

Most would also enjoy Kadowaki mentioned in other thread.

Also, why not visit a chinese restaurant? My favorite is Hei Fung Terrace at the Peninsula, because the entire Peninsula hotel group has stopped serving shark fin.

Re: Michelin - I don't think it's very accurate for Japanese cuisine. As for the western cuisines and at the risk of sounding snobbish and getting flamed, the vast majority of customers at the 3 star restaurants are on once in a decade outings and totally out of place at these restaurants. As a result the atmosphere is often very stilted. IMHO the ambiance of a restaurant is much nicer with a more sophisticated clientele who are actually able to relax and have a nice time in a formal setting.

Hei Fung Terrace? That place is atrocious. Either flavorless and/or gloppy, chintzy portions, weird "accomodations" to the Japanese palate, and outrageously expensive, to boot. Cheaper to get on a plane and fly to Hong Kong to have some proper Chinese food. Same applies for Japanese food in Hong Kong, the "high end" stuff in Hong Kong is so expensive (and not as good as the stuff in Japan) that it is probably cheaper to get on a plane and fly to Japan for the real deal.

Obviously exaggerating a little, but not by much. Tokyo does many world cuisines to different degrees of accomplishment. Chinese is one where, except for the Japanized stuff (like mabodofu at Chef Chin's, which is its own special beast), Tokyo misses the mark very widely.

I'll respond to your detailed (and thoughtful) message in parts over the next day or two.

With regard to yakitori - "sold" :). It occurred to me that we aren't making any dinner reservations at all before we leave due to probable jet lag issues. But - by day 3 or 4 - we will probably be up to having light dinners (and will be sufficiently awake too). And yakitori seems perfect for a light dinner - because one can order it by the "piece".

In your experience - is it necessary to make a reservation at Yakitori Toriyoshi (Ginza) more than a day or two in advance? (Ginza seems to be the closest location to FS Marunouchi - where we'll be staying.) If not - we can put that on a "short list" of places for light dinner. Robyn

Frankly I could not care less. I am a huge fan of the Peninsula hotels in general and enjoy their Chinese restaurants. I also do not approve of shark's fin, and appreciate how they have removed these items from their menus. Everyone has different criteria for choosing restaurants - in addition to food quality I require excellent service that is not only attentive, but warm and friendly as well. Since I value service highly and am not particularly price sensitive, Hei Fung terrace is a good choice for me.

Also, I disagree a bit about accommodations made to suit Japanese taste, as the chefs can prepare the food according to one's specifications. The ingredients used in Japan and other countries are mostly imported from China. Items like abalone and shark's fin eaten in China are often imported from Japan anyway.

Apart from their use of shark's fin, I also like Chugoku Hanten in Roppongi, as well as the group's other restaurants. So do Chinese friends of mine.

Ginza would be the closest location to your hotel. I have never made a reservation at Toriyoshi and don't even think it is possible to. Even though they are popular there is usually little or no wait as they are relatively large yakitori restaurants. I guarantee you will enjoy yakitori at toriyoshi for a casual dinner. You can order what you want from the display, or order omakase. A yakitori meal can be as light or as filling as you want:).

Website seems to be 100% in Japanese - but here are some pictures and a bit of history:

http://serenphemera.typepad.com/musi...matsubara.html

We'll be making all our reservations through the hotel concierge desk (it did an excellent job on our first trip - the detailed maps for each restaurant were very useful too).

You are of course correct about the proper etiquette - especially not taking apart food. At Kozasa Sushi - I did 1/2 sashimi and 1/2 sushi on a smaller lunch menu - which worked out fine. Note that not only did we make reservations through the hotel concierge - we also ordered the specific menu we wanted in advance through the hotel concierge as well (many restaurants have 2-3 or sometimes more options).

FWIW - I ran across this looking up some sushi restaurants that have been mentioned:

http://www.luxeat.com/blog/30-sushi-...tabelog-users/

Good for people like me who can't make any sense out of Tabelog.

I pretty much enjoy eating all kinds of fish and seafood - even if I don't know what they are. I only get into trouble with large quantities of food.

I've found the Michelin Guide very useful for basic information at your fingertips. Like the general part of town where a restaurant is. What kind of food a restaurant serves. What the hours are. Whether credit cards are accepted. And - for example - that Mikawa seems to be a "no shoes" restaurant :) - and that its interior sounds like it's lovely.

OTOH - perhaps that is a different "Mikawa". The one in Michelin is "Mikawa Zezankyo in Koto-Ku. Same restaurant or different restaurant? Robyn

So because it doesn't serve shark's fin (whether they serve it or not is neither here nor there, I actually don't think it tastes anything special), the service is very good (not disputing that, actually, but that's to be expected, at the Peninsula in Tokyo), and you're not particularly price sensitive, you're happy to have a sub-par food experience? Suit yourself.

The Peninsula hotels worldwide aren't known for their Chinese restaurants. Even the Hong Kong flagship restaurant, Spring Moon, is widely considered a "must miss" by the foodie crowd in Hong Kong. The one in Tokyo is no exception.

And if I had 6 or 7 nights in Tokyo or whatever, like our esteemed OP, I certainly wouldn't recommend Chinese food in Japan, and least of all Hei Fung Terrace. Even I am not that mean-spirited.

Tempura Guide in Eater
 

http://eater.com/archives/2012/09/27...s.php#pointmap

This answered some of my questions. Robyn

I am not a self described "foodie" - whatever that means - although I do take food very seriously. When in Hong Kong I tend to eat at the hotels where I stay, whether that means Man Wah at MO, Lung King Heen at the FS, or Spring Moon at the Pen. Admittedly I prefer the former two to the latter, but I have never had a bad meal at Spring Moon.

I am highly confident in my choice of restaurants, and don't need to be told by anyone what I should or should not like.

Anyway, enough about Hei Fung Terrace. Instead of criticizing my recommendations or those of others, would you possibly care to share any of your restaurant recommendations?

btw just to clarify re shark's fin - I support the restaurant because I am morally opposed to the inhumane killing of sharks for their fins to be used in Chinese cuisine. As you, in your infinite wisdom have pointed out shark's fin has no taste. This is not just your opinion. Shark's fin, like other ingredients, is used in Chinese cuisine for its texture.

While I thoroughly enjoyed Tsunahachi in Shinjuku after a recent visit there I'm not sure it warrants inclusion in the 'higher end dining' category of Tokyo restaurants. Even the description in the linked blog notes:

"the main shop in Shinjuku is a great choice if you don't want to break the bank"

My take in this whole list-driven discussion is that many, if not most, of the restaurants being talked about in this thread are fine establishments, and you can't go wrong with them. I've been to many, but not all of them, and have opinions about the ones I've been to.

There are also hundreds of restaurants not on some list or another, some of which are even better than those on the lists. I've been to a fair number of those too. Just as a data point, note robyng's link to tabelog's top 30 sushi joints, of which only 10 are on the Michelin "guide" and the "temple" of them all, Jiro, barely makes the top 50.

Specifically, of those 30 sushi joints, I've been to pretty much all of them, and most of them involve picking up the phone a couple of days in advance and making a reservation. No theater, no drama, no hand wringing, no endless discussions with people you don't know and don't know you about what you're going to like or not, and whether you should start dialing at 9:00 AM first of the month. Couple of them, the ones which specifically overlap with some of the more "famous" mis-guides or bloggers or whatever floats in the cyberspace, are a biatch to get in, most likely because of said excess of attention. Frankly, is Saito better than #21 on the list, or whatever? In some ways, yes, in most ways no.

If people here and elsewhere want to establish a theater-like atmosphere about going to some restaurant or another which is, in the end, a subjective decision and not really differentiated enough to somebody who hasn't tried enough of them, that's just fine by me. In general, I have no issue with most of the restaurants being discussed, even if I may have a preference for some place not being mentioned. But I don't think there is enough material difference to provide an alternative to somebody who probably wouldn't know the difference anyway, so let them go with the well-known and hard to get in great restaurant instead of the not-so-well known and easier to get in great one.

Where I do draw the line is at places like Hei Fung Terrace or whatever, where the experience is certainly not worth a damn, and I have no problems saying so. Of course, to each his or her own, but sometimes a point needs to be made.

I don't think I've ever been to any restaurant listed in this thread so far, and I still enjoy the Japanese food experience. To generalize one point, however, I avoid Chinese restaurants in Japan because the ones that I have tried haven't been very good, even by my local SF bay area standards.

The curious standout in foreign cuisine in Japan is Indian restaurants. They're consistently decent and sometimes quite good. Driving to Mt Iso in a rental car in Kyushu, one of my kids was impulsing it through FourSquare and found an Indian restaurant we were coming up on that had a few check-ins, although we couldn't read them since no one in the car knew Japanese. We stopped and had a really good lunch for about Y1400 each.

I also don't care about lists or rankings. I had not been to Jiro until I once met his son, Mr. Yoshikazu Ono, while dining at a restaurant. It turned out he was close friends with the chef at the restaurant, with whom I also have a very good rapport. We started talking a bit about sushi, and ever since I have had nothing but wonderful experiences at Jiro, and am always warmly welcomed at the restaurant. For me the experience of eating at Jiro has nothing to do with its ratings or Michelin stars.

Shin is another sushi restaurant that I enjoy so much that, apart from Jiro, I never go elsewhere unless I am invited by someone. I have never had a problem making a reservation, and when dining alone can often reserve with very short notice.

One and the same - this is the same location to which I posted a link in you other thread. I highly recommend this restaurant and hope that you will try it. Mikawa Zezankyo and Mikawa in Roppongi Hills are the only places I eat tempura (usually am at the Roppongi location several times a month). Do go^.

My regular Indian restaurant in Tokyo is Diya at Roppongi Hills. This restaurant is used extensively by the Indian and Saudi embassies for entertainment, and many Indians who live in Tokyo are regulars.

For regular customers and those who appreciate authentic Indian food, they can produce very authentic dishes. With advance notice they can produce spectacular indian food for parties of at least three or four people (because homestyle indian food often needs to be cooked in volume and takes hours to prepare). The service is excellent, which is no surprise since several of the managers have experience working at some of the best Taj hotel properties in India.

You made some good points (at least they're points I agree with :)) - and I'll go somewhat further by linking this:

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/20...an-restaurants

An article I agree with almost 100%. Perhaps the only exception - and it is somewhat dependent on countries for me - is the "tasting menu only" concept. In Japan - I found myself sticking to a lot of "omakase" or "fixed plates" (the latter found in many "plastic food restaurants") because I honestly could not have picked out the better/best stuff myself (that's kind of hard to do when the staff speaks little or no English - you only speak a little Japanese - and the menus are only written in Japanese and you can't read Japanese ;)).

I was thinking of having 2 threads here - one for higher end dining - and one for more casual dining. But there's obviously a blurry area in the middle - and there's no reason we can't get into that. The only things I'd like to avoid here are "fast food" type experiences (the Korean BBQ I had at the "old village" attraction at the Osaka Aquarium was pretty good - but that's not the kind of restaurant I'm trying to find here) - and places where you can't make reservations and/or have to wait on line.

Which of the sushi restaurants on the Tabelog list that you've been to recently did you like the best - say the top 4 or 5? Ones that to the best of your knowledge serve lunch and take credit cards (I can look that up if you don't happen to remember).

FWIW - there is one thing I am going to try hard to avoid on this trip. And that is going to restaurant after restaurant where I am greeted by a counter full of 30-somethings from countries outside Japan who think that because they know how to take a picture - they're competent to write a blog about food. This wasn't a problem during our first trip to Japan in 2006 - because Japan wasn't really on the food radar screen back then. But it's on *everyone's* food radar screen today - and I don't like restaurants that are "tourist attractions" (I especially dislike being surrounded by people who spend their entire meals taking pictures). Note that I am not a total curmudgeon - but am pretty close to it when it comes to restaurant stuff I don't like. Robyn

+1. The picture taking is very irritating. I tune it out while at Jiro because I am focused on the food. Incessant photography bothers Mr. Jiro and Mr. Yoshikazu very much.

They should ban it. Lesser chefs than they are (e.g., David Chang in some of his restaurants and Cesar Ramirez at Brooklyn Fare IIRC) have banned it. When you have a restaurant that is almost impossible to book - what's the harm? Moreover - most of the pictures are terrible (because it's hard to photograph food).

Note that I have zero objection to a "family photo" at a restaurant - perhaps with the chef if you're lucky. Or perhaps one like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1050556...7605907606503/

Especially if it's a special occasion for someone. It's like joining in if people are singing "Happy Birthday" (we were once serenaded on the occasion of my husband's birthday by some very friendly Dutch tourists when we were having afternoon tea/dessert at a good place in New York - their native "Happy Birthday" song in their native language - in full harmony!! - really fun).

OTOH - why everyone thinks they have to take a picture of everything they eat? Well got me. Perhaps they're scared of getting Alzheimer's and forgetting their meals :D. On my part - I remember the truly memorable stuff even now - 5-10-20-30-40 years after the fact.

And I do like photography - just not when it might possibly bother anyone else - or interfere with a meal I'm eating. My favorite subjects are flowers and butterflies :) - close-ups of familiar things so they wind up looking like abstracts - and golf pictures taken at my local PGA tournament (the Players - tune in next week and watch - I'll wave to the blimp :D).

FWIW - I have found that the best way to meet chefs "up close" and to have personal experiences with them is to smoke (which I do). I've had many interesting chats with chefs and chef owners while ducking into alleys outside a restaurant to "grab a smoke" between courses (usually between the main(s) and dessert). One of the few times in life when smoking is an asset. Robyn

Just FWIW - the name of the head concierge at FSM is Akhil Tiwari. Which sounds like an Indian name to me (not sure). Although I have no idea where he comes from (could be a dozen or more places).

I'll also note that I have no intention of eating Chinese or Indian or any similar non-Japanese food during our trip. It's only a week-long trip - and there is so much Japanese food we want to explore.

I kind of envy you people who spend a lot of time in Japan in terms of food - but I'm afraid that's not in the cards for us. Robyn

Sounds like a good one to try - and we will if possible. Robyn

If we were all concerned about the sustainability of stuff that comes from the oceans - we wouldn't touch more common things like bluefin tuna either. Note that I keep on top of these things (especially because I live in a big fishing area - coastal Florida) - but I'm not a fanatic either. So I don't mean to say this to start an argument.

Both Chinese and Japanese cuisine best I can figure out use certain ingredients for "texture" (it's a more important component of their cuisines than western cuisines IMO). In all honesty - I am not a big fan of "texture" stuff - especially the stuff that's slimy (like sea cucumbers). Still - I'll try a little "texture stuff" again on this trip - and see what I think (although I won't knock myself out in terms of multiple meals). Robyn

The problem with Ryugin is it's dinner only. On our first trip to Japan - we found ourselves unable to stay up past 9 pm for the first 3-4 days. Really bad jet lag (from the east coast of the US). This trip will be only a week. Perhaps we could do Ryugin at the end of the week - but I'm not entirely sure - and don't want to take a chance - and have to make a lot of explanations/perhaps cancel. Especially since it's a "tough ticket" restaurant (if I can reserve a place for dinner a night or two in advance - when I know we'll be ^^ for dinner - that's ok).

Note that I dined at Per Se within a year of opening. It was fine for New York (although I like Le Bernardin a lot more). Kind of :td: in terms of 3 star Michelin restaurants in a lot of Europe (especially in terms of wine service - which was very amateurish IMO). Robyn

I understand what you're saying. But - in Japan - especially in Tokyo - that may well mean "by invitation only" restaurants. Which people like me and my husband don't have access to (just like we'll never be able to play golf at Augusta).

What in particular do you think is inaccurate about "Michelin in Japan" (not saying you're wrong - just asking)? Robyn

My reason for not eating shark's fin is not related to sustainability. The killing of sharks only for their fins is a cruel and inhumane practice. Sharks suffer slow deaths after their fins have been cut off.

Excellent point IMO. Perhaps made unwittingly. There are people here who live in Japan or travel there frequently (for various reasons - probably mostly business). Then there are people like me and my husband and others for whom it is a once or twice or perhaps thrice in a lifetime trip - often a *very* long distance trip.

Just to give you an idea. On our first trip to Japan - the best connection we could make from JAX was JAX ---> EWR on an afternoon flight. Overnight at EWR. Than an early flight to NRT. Left on Monday and got to Tokyo on Wednesday. Ditto when going home. We have better connections now through ATL - but it is still about 24 hours door to door. And we are no spring chickens (65 and 68). So this kind of travel tends to wipe us out.

If someone in the first category goes to Tokyo for a week - and has one or two bum meals - no big deal. Next time will be better. If people like us in the second category have the same experience - it's a waste of a large part of a big deal trip. Especially for those of us who like to eat. So you will perhaps excuse those of us in the second category for not being especially adventurous at times. Robyn

First, I must disagree with your assessment of Chinese cuisine in Japan. Certainly, it has been refined (Japonified) over it's 100+ year history so if you're a purist maybe that's unacceptable, but by that line of reasoning one would have to forgo every other foreign cuisine in Japan including French, Italian, Yakitori, Tempura (and sushi for that matter). IMHO one of the great things about Japanese cuisine is the creativity, refinement and perfection. Not to mention the fact that for 30 or 40 years the only place haute Chinese cuisine survived outside a few restaurants in HK was in Japan. Enough of that rant, suffice it to say that I'm a great fan of Sino-Japanese cuisine.

Totally agree on your other points though. The standard and number of restaurants in Japan is so high that you don't really need a list to in order to figure out where to eat. One of the great things about the Japanese restaurant scene is the ability to constantly experience new cuisine, new decor, new service, etc.

Saito is indeed quite good, but the trick is that it's sushi offerings are (at a very high level of execution) rather pedestrian. What's outstanding about Saito is the tsumami parts of the meal that you get before the sushi, but aren't part of the lunch menu. So if you go for lunch and get the lunch specials, you'll think it's great but what's all the fuss. You have to order the dinner menu even at lunch. And there goes the idea of a "cheaper lunch". I think Sushi Unchi and its sister restaurant Sushi Unko are outstanding, but they are both insider's places. If you go for lunch to either make sure to get the more expensive sets if you want to get the most love.

As for 30-something star-fecker food porn tourists, there is no better way to run into them than to follow the usual "guides" to determine where to go. Using a foreign-language guide or a foreign-language blog or web review to pick where you eat pretty much guarantees you'll run into them.

And Japan has been on the "food radar" for a long, long time. Just not one whose instruction manual comes with a crimson or a red cover.

I don't understand how you have come to that conclusion.

As I'm extremely familiar with certain aspects of Spanish cuisine I regard myself as a good judge on whether foods that fall under my particular umbrella of experience are authentic or not. The standard of Spanish cuisine in Japan can be very high with certain restaurants being able to hold their own with their counterparts in Spain, even winning competitions in Spain against local experts in the regional cuisines.

I know of examples of Japanese chefs specialising in French and Italian cuisine achieving similar awards and recognition in those countries.

Are there any accounts of Japanese Chinese cuisine specialists based in Tokyo gaining recognition in China?

Interesting information. What are the "tsunami" parts of the meal? Are they like the amuse courses in western restaurants (I've never heard that term before)?

My Michelin Guide is the English version from 2012. It shows the dinner sets at Saito range in price from 15,750 to 26,250 yen. About what are the prices these days? In all honesty - our last 2 international trips were to Stockholm (2012) and Paris (2008) - where the food prices induce nosebleeds. So - apart from a place like 7chome Kyoboshi (sets from 33,600 to 38,350) - most of the higher priced restaurants in Tokyo seem like decent values to me (assuming the food is in line with the prices).

In terms of the "more expensive sets" at sushi restaurants - do you get more courses - courses with more expensive ingredients - or both?

And - if you don't mind my digging a little deeper and picking your brain a bit more....

What are the seasonal specialties in early September - and what restaurants are considered best for them? For some reason - mackerel is the only seafood that comes to mind (but I could be wrong about that).

I've lived in a big seafood area (Florida) for decades. I know our seafood backwards and forwards. I know some about seafood in Europe. But I know almost nothing about seafood in Japan. So TIA for any guidance. Robyn

P.S. If anyone else here can shed some light on these questions - jump right in.