Of course not. The Chinese have regarded Japan as cultural backwater for the last 1500 years, and there is zero chance they would praise anything remotely Japanese especially in current political environment.

Tsumami (or o-tsumami, not tsunami) are the little side dishes that start the meal, or go with drinks.

30-something star-fecker food porn tourists

YES! I've noticed that pretty much all of the 2- or 3-Michelin-starred Japanese restaurants in Tokyo that I've been to in the past few years have been entirely, or almost entirely, populated by tourists. (Although some of them were over 40.)

It's "tsumami" not to be confused with "tsunami". Not sure there is an exact translation, but "finger" food is a somewhat literal translation. Basically small side dishes to be eaten with your fingertips (or chopsticks) usually at the start of a meal. Could be something like peanuts or edamame but also could be something much more complex and sophisticated.

It´s a new bad habit over the last few years, since more and more people enjoy michelin stard food and handle it like an event. When I was I child and visited such restaurant with my parents (25 years ago) I think no one took pictures inside the restaurants. I won´t say I cry for the old days, but sometimes I feel very irritated.

Japan's biggest exports to its historical nemeses are "cute" and "fiction."

Granted, this is just anecdotal evidence, but during my teaching days in Shenzhen (China), students would frequently sing songs from anime and knowingly replace certain words in the songs that had to do with praising Japan. CCTV in the making.

Many knew "baka yarou" too, but it sounded more like "baka yalou."

Well, back on topic, sort of...

I tend to take photos of food no matter where I am, but it's not likely to be at a fine dining establishment.

OTOH, I feel like every other place I eat in East Asia someone (from that part of the world) is taking a photo. At one restaurant in Shenzhen, a woman yelled at me for doing so (she was bored?), so the easy way 'round that is to just do take-out. None the wiser, she is.

Oh... so that's the reason!
I'll bear this in mind next time I'm in Tokyo, reassuring to know that there are many brilliant Japanese chefs of outstanding competence who have devoted a significant portion of their lives to perfecting authentic Chinese regional specialities. Now I understand that the current political climate is the sole reason why connoisseurs of Chinese food don't recognise their dedication and commitment.

Since a huge generalisation has been made, I couldn't help but be struck by the flipside and so wonder if the Japanese have regarded China as a cultural backwater, the original cuisines not being nearly as prestigious as the foods of other parts of the World and so not worth pursuing, either as a chef or seeking out authentic versions of it as a diner.

:confused:

OMG - A Fight About Chinese Food In Japan :)
 

And I don't want to sit 100% on the sidelines :D.

As you can probably guess - not only do I know very little about food in Japan in general - I know even less about Chinese food in Japan ;).

But - on our first trip - we dined with the son and DIL of some local friends of ours - the children live and work in Tokyo. And we had lunch together one day. At one of Iron Chef Chen Kinichi's restaurants. The choice of our friends' children - not ours. We asked them to pick a restaurant where we could treat them to lunch - and this is what they chose. Because the restaurant was 2 blocks away from their apartment and they said they liked Chinese food (husband is from the US - wife is Japanese). Even though I still have the restaurant brochure - I can't figure out which of Chef Kinichi's restaurants we dined at (he had a bunch in Tokyo then - and the brochure is in Japanese). All I recall is it was in an office building/store complex at the last stop of a subway line (I think NW of downtown Tokyo). It is certainly well away from anyone's tourist path (I got the impression Chef Kinichi was more of a local celebrity than an international celebrity in Tokyo then).

In any event - the lunch was quite something. Because the staff was basically Chinese and didn't speak much Japanese (or any English). The menu was only in Japanese and Chinese - and only the wife of our friend's son read Japanese. And she was kind of busy with their 7-8 month old son :D.

We did manage to order and get fed. IMO - the food wasn't memorable - or even very good - but it was adequate - not vile or bad. So - if I had to guess - there are probably some pretty decent Chinese restaurants in Tokyo (if you picked a random neighborhood Chinese place where I live - and I would put this restaurant in that category - it would be awful - forget about eating in Chinese restaurants where I live).

Anyway - like I said - we have no plans to dine at a Chinese restaurant on this trip (because there is so much Japanese fare to explore). But one place I have with a ??? on my list for a snack or light dinner is Gyoza Stadium. Haven't read anything recent and particularly positive about it. Should I cross it off my list (that's my current inclination)? Robyn

5khours and lobsterdog too - I forgot my glasses on the nightstand this morning and didn't want to go back in the bedroom and wake my husband up. Last time I'll do that. No wonder I drew a blank when I googled "tsunami" and "food" <smacking forehead). Thanks for getting me back on the right track. Robyn

I see you're from Germany. On our last trip to Germany - we didn't see a single camera at the 2 3 star restaurants we dined at (Vendome and Dieter Muller). Or the lesser restaurants either. Of course - that was in 2007 - and cameras are much more common now.

These restaurants are kind of formal. Perhaps there is something about the new trend of "higher end" dining at counters (obviously not new in Japan but new elsewhere) that encourages people to be casual and kind of oblivious or even rude when it comes to how they relate to the people sitting next to them. Because people from some places - including the United States - think of counter dining as a place to have a quick meal where you read your newspaper (or electronic equivalent) - talk on your cellphone - etc. - etc. - and kind of ignore the people around you. Perhaps formal is better?

Off topic - but the food we had in Germany on our last trip was ^^^. It was spargel season too (for people who don't know what spargel is - see for example http://www.germanfoods.org/consumer/...pargelzeit.cfm). What a treat :). Robyn

What about French restaurants? An old chef friend of ours - Bruno Menard - from the Ritz Carlton Buckhead (Atlanta Georgia USA) became the head chef at L'Osier - and it was widely regarded as one of the best restaurants (French or otherwise) in Tokyo until it closed. Robyn

Excellent point. If you believe that Japanese chefs are capable of producing world class versions of every cuisine in the world except Chinese, it would be worth explaining what causes this peculiar culinary handicap.

No, I think the Japanese have always recognized the strong Chinese cultural heritage they have received. That said good Chinese cuisine has existed in Japan for a long time, whereas there were very few decent European restaurants in Japan 30 years ago with the exception of a handful of very expensive French restaurants.

Well at least you didn't confuse "inu" with "uni" which an acquaintance of mine did while trying to order sushi.

L'Osier was wonderful!

People who are close to one another in some ways can still hate one another's guts. For example - there are more members of religious places in Japan than there are people. With many being both Buddhist and Shinto (the latter religion primarily of Chinese origin). Kanji is also IIRC of Chinese origin. Still - I get the impression there is no love lost between the Japanese and the Chinese (or the Koreans for that matter).

It's kind of like the middle east. There are no dietary requirements closer to Jewish Kosher than Muslim Halal - but that doesn't exactly make Jews and Muslims good buddies.

OTOH - doesn't mean that we can't enjoy the food - or have chefs in the countries we're talking about who learn to cook delicious versions of it. Good food/eats often transcend a lot of fault lines among people IMO. Robyn

Inu?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiba_Inu

If so - I'm glad I'm not dyslexic :D.

When did you dine there? Bruno Menard took over there when the chef who had been there almost forever retired in about 2005 or so. Chef Menard is now doing trendy stuff in Singapore (like high end burgers). I honestly think it is not his thing - his "highest and best use" - and his talents (he's a wonderful chef IMO) could be put to better purpose elsewhere. Robyn

Wagyu Steak in Tokyo and a few comments on Chinese Food in Japan
 

I figured I might ask this question of where I could get a good wagyu steak preferably in Tokyo? I generally have wagyu in a karubi format where diners grill it themselves over charcoal but was wondering if there are recommendations for this in Tokyo.

With regards to the discussion about Chinese food in Japan, I figured I might give some comments about it. First of all, I would have to say Chinese food are very different once it is outside of a region where there is no Chinese-majority population. That is to say the Chinese food like Chow Mein, Sweet and Sour Pork and Potstickers in N. America are not representative of Chinese food. That is probably why Chinese food in Japan has never gained any recognition because it does not offer anything new to Chinese cuisine.

Another point to note is how Chinese food has such wide varieties even in China. In the north, dumplings are common features along with lamb and other red meat. While in the south, seafood is more prominent in Chinese cuisines. Then there are the regional cuisines like Sichuan dishes which are numbingly spicy and Shanghainese dishes that have a special flavour of their own. As far as I am concerned my favourite places to have Chinese food now is in Macau and Singapore. There are also some high-end dishes in Chinese cuisine that might not be to everyone's taste, though they are popular amongst Japanese, like Sea Cucumber. Some Chinese restaurants in Singapore and HK are so popular they actually have branches in Japan so maybe if people are interested, they can try them out (eg. Crystal Jade Restaurant Group from Singapore). Another place to get really good Chinese food in Japan is perhaps in Yokohama (home to the largest Chinatown in Japan) and only 40 minutes (maybe less) train ride from Ebisu Station in Tokyo.

On the status of Chinese food in Japan, others' experiences might differ, but when I go to a business lunch or dinner with clients or counterparties in Tokyo, at least 50% of the time we end up going to a Chinese restaurant at a Japanese organizer's suggestion. There are a few high-end Chinese restaurants in the Akasaka/Nagatacho area that are known to be regular haunts of Japanese politicians. This makes perfect sense when you consider that most such places have private rooms with big round tables that can easily seat 8-10 people (with communal food and drink in the middle that people can share to add to a cooperative atmosphere).

I get the impression that most Japanese people have deep respect for Chinese history and culture, even if many of them find modern-day China to be completely repulsive.

Re Yokohama's Chinatown: nearly everyone there is from Fujian, based on what I have heard from people who would know.

Quite a few times including in the Menard era. It's due to re-open in the fall of this year, but I don't know any of the details.

Of course Japan has excellent Chinese restaurants. I have thoroughly enjoyed both casual and high-end Chinese cuisine in Japan, often with Chinese friends who have equally enjoyed the food.

If I can enjoy some of my favorite foods like Peking duck, bird's nest soup, abalone, or others, while tasting different kinds of tea (especially various types of pu'er), I am happy. I enjoy tasting new things and the pleasure of dining with friends. I don't feel the need to overanalyse the food or to compare the experience to dining in Hong Kong or elsewhere.

Thank you. At least there's one other independent thinker not swayed by the "you can only get good Chinese food in China" culinary orthodoxy.

The "you can only get good Chinese food in China" mentality is irrational, narrow-minded, and shows limited understanding of the cuisine. Often ingredients used in Chinese cuisine are imported from Japan or other parts of Asia before being processed/prepared/dried and packaged for sale in China. Many of these products are then re-exported for use in Chinese restaurants and for sale in Chinese markets throughout Asia and the rest of the world. So, in many cases the ingredients used in Chinese restaurants in Tokyo and other places are identical to those used in Hong Kong.

Now he's in Singapore flipping burgers. What a waste of talent.

Let me give you the counter-argument. I don't (willingly) eat sushi outside of Japan. Can you find good sushi outside of Japan? Yes, but (a) it's hard to find, (b) inconsistent, and (c) much more expensive than the equivalent quality in Japan. So why bother setting myself up for disappointment at some highly-rated place in, say, New York, paying through the nose, for something that, at best, equals what you can find in Japan?

The same goes for Chinese food in Japan. I happen to love Chef Ken Kenichi's mabodofu, as a number of contributors to this forum can attest. Is it tasty? Absolutely. Is it "Chinese" food? I guess you could say. Is it something you'd find in China? Yes, but not in the same way. And lastly, can you find better in China? Yes, there is no question. And, would I go out of my way to seek it as a visitor to Japan? Absolutely not.

This is all true, but fails to account for obvious reasons why one might want to eat Chinese food, Sushi, or other foods in foreign countries. Often, one does not have the ability at any given moment to travel the world to eat a particular type of food. Even if one resides in or frequently travels to Hong Kong or Tokyo, one might want to eat Chinese food or sushi with a particular person who does not. One might also want to eat a favorite food while abroad for an extended period of time.

While the best Sushi in the world can only be found in Tokyo, in cities like New York fish and other ingredients can be flown in easily enough if they cannot be sourced more locally. The result as you say is usually sushi that is at best adequate by Tokyo standards, and of course the price is much higher. Nevertheless, for those who cannot easily make it to Tokyo, or for Japanese expatriates living in New York, this is still appealing.

Chinese food is a bit less specialized than sushi (the type of sushi discussed here is specific to Tokyo), and the ingredients are much easier to obtain in foreign countries, especially in Japan or other parts of Asia. In Japan, I would contend that Chinese food can be produced with greater success than good sushi can be in New York. The best Chinese food in Japan is obviously not as good as the best Chinese food in China, but is still probably better than >90% of Chinese food in China. Of course the cost of high-end Chinese food in Japan is very high, but again for many people it can be appealing.

As you appear to have HK as one of your locations, and obviously spend a lot of time in Japan, it is understandable that eating the local foods where you are would make more sense. Others might not travel to China frequently or at all, which may be the case for the OP. For an American traveling to Japan who has no immediate plans to travel to China, it could absolutely make sense to have a Chinese meal in Tokyo, as it's still pretty damn good and in any event far better than what is available in the US.

Let me counter your counter-argument. Is the best steakhouse in the U.S.? Probably? Is the best Italian restaurant in Italy? Yes. Can you get some incredible steak outside of the U.S.? Can you get some incredible Italian outside of Italy? Yes. Yes. Do you only eat American food when you're in America? Would eat the same cuisine 3 meals a day for a week no matter where you were? No. No. I wouldn't eat Japanese at every meal when I'm in Japan anymore than I would eat only American food if I'm in the U.S.

Bottom line for me, there are a lot of really outstanding restaurants for all kinds of cuisines in Japan. I would never consider ruling them out just because I'm in Japan. Number one in the world maybe not, but world class...definitely. Maybe no place else in the world is there such a smorgasbord of really great choices. On top of that the creativity, ambiance, variety of decor and the incredible service is fantastic. For me the thing I love about eating in Japan is the choice and the variety.

As for sushi outside of Japan, I tend to agree. Before sushi (and Japanese food in general) became so trendy, the situation was much better. There were a few places like Takezushi in NY and Kamehachi in Chicago that were really good (better than Japan for some varieties of fish and shellfish) and the price was about a quarter of what you would pay in Tokyo. Now with Korean chefs and California rolls, there's a lot more chaff and it's a lot harder to get a decent meal.

I agree, I eat all kinds of food wherever I travel. I also see no difference between having Chinese food in Tokyo and having a French or Italian meal in Tokyo. All will usually not be as good as what is available in the country of origin, and often more expensive, but who cares? If it's an enjoyable meal and a good way to add some variety to one's life, that's good enough for me.

When I travel I may have a list of a few restaurants I want to try, but mostly I make impulse decisions based on what I feel like eating at the moment.

Just getting back to the OP. Here's the checklist I would make if I were visiting Japan as a tourist not necessarily in order.

1. Power breakfast
2. Kaiseki
3. A couple of contemporary Japanese restaurants
4. Tonkatsu
5. Soba
6. Nice French
7. Ramen
8. Nice Italian
9. Sushi
10. Chinese
11. Yakitori
12. Japanese breakfast

That was pretty much my list with a few exceptions.

The Yakitori. Which I added during this thread.

The Chinese - and the Italian. Wouldn't mind good Chinese food (we have awful Chinese restaurants where we live and haven't had decent Chinese food since we were in Los Angeles a couple of years ago). As for Italian - maybe. I'm a better than decent Italian cook. Moreover - the room service menu at the hotel had some excellent pasta dishes when we were there (one with uni - outrageously good :)). We may do room service once or twice if we're tired at night. So I'll see - do a bit more reading. The one thing I'm not going to do again is try spaghetti with a mayo based sauce. Did that on the first trip - and once is enough :D.

Will definitely have Japanese breakfast (breakfast is included in our room rate - and Japanese breakfast is one of the options). What's a "power breakfast"? Robyn

OK, now you have me painted into a corner. I have to agree with this post 100%.

As for the subsequent posts about putting up with sub-par versions of whatever, I disagree with the posters advocating that. I would rather dine on the plethora of very good options produced locally than eat bad Mole in Tokyo. Over to you on that one Pickles mi amigo. ;)

Not exactly.

http://www.weekendnotes.com.au/and-m...rd-restaurant/

I tend to agree - but am reserving judgment. I know that in light of the economic downturn - Chef Menard and a lot of his fellow chefs - including those still in Atlanta - have tried to "roll with the punches" in terms of producing more "affordable food". For example - Chef Linton Hopkins (Beard best chef in the SE United States) is more famous for the limited number of burgers he turns out at his casual restaurant than he is for the excellent food at his "fine dining restaurant" (wandering "foodies" will go out of their way - actually leave the airport ;) - to get the burger - but avoid the fine dining restaurant). And then there is Chef Richard Blais - who pretty much failed doing molecular gastronomy (which is a tough sell in cities like Atlanta and Miami) - but then succeeded with his "Flip Burger Boutique".

Of course - this is not only something that is going on in Atlanta. It's at least a national phenomenon (perhaps an international one). Meals that are less fussy - served in more casual surroundings. I don't mind the trend (although I'm not a burger fan) - but fear it is crowding out older notions of "fine dining". Robyn

Who said anything about sub-par.

Orchid Room at the Okura.

Well I read what you wrote as exactly that actually. To advocate eating something here that is not what it could be if one ate it elsewhere is in my opinion tolerating sub-par versions. Where other cuisines have been adopted and adapted as have French and Italian in Japan to produced stellar and new dishes no rational argument can be made that they are seeking to mimic the original. Rather they are a domestically produced version based on the original. Those foods that seek to be what is produced elsewhere often fail miserably in the attempt. Of course many levels of palate exist. This is why supermarket wine sells so very well :-)

Hope your question doesn't get lost here. Although steak isn't my personal favorite - I know that "Japanese steakhouses" are an important class of Japanese restaurants. And I'm sure there must be some excellent ones in Tokyo. Robyn

So what... you're only going to eat Italian at Enoteca Pinchiorri and swear off all other Italian food as sub-par... and can we further assume that any Pinot shy of Romanee-Conti (which BTW you can buy in a Japanese super-market) is sub-par?

The post was a little confusing.

Karubi is ribs (usually without the bone) served at Korean restaurants in Japan. Not exactly steak. If you want authentic Korean, there are quite a few restaurants in the Akasaka area. If you want Japanized Korean, Sankoen and Juju are popular spots.

If on the other hand the poster actually wants wagyu (literally Japanese beef.. but it actually refers to specific breeds) steak, there are quite a few choices. Steakhouse Hama is maybe the most well known... but very pricey ($4k for 6) last time I went.

Sure, you can find pretty much every kind of cuisine in Japan to varying levels of accomplishment. In that continuum, with French and Italian towards the more accomplished, at the bottom of the barrel are, to me, Chinese and Mexican food. Is there any place to have decent or good Chinese or Mexican food? Yes, there is, but it isn't something I would seek out willingly, or recommend to anybody else that they do. In this category lands the Chinese restaurant in the Peninsula.

In the same way, in New York, you can find some damn fine Italian and French, some pretty good Mexican, some excellent Chinese, and besides one or two select places, some incredibly mediocre and expensive sushi.

I don't eat sushi in NY, I don't eat Chinese food in Tokyo. Life's too short to drink bad wine, and I'd rather stick to what's truly good in a particular place rather than "broaden" my palate and end up pissed off because of a subpar meal. And yes, what you're advocating is to accept the subpar.

^^^ Half order of French Toast with fruit.

Speaking of bad Mole in Tokyo, it is all bad, except for the prune Mole at La Fonda de la Madrugada I had a long time ago. I haven't been in years, so don't know if it has gone to pot. Wouldn't surprise me if it had, but during the bubble era it was definitely excellent. By the way, and surprisingly, one can find some pretty decent tacos in Hong Kong. Good enough to repeat the experience.

As I said in an earlier post, for Chinese I recommend the Chugoku Hanten restaurants, such as Fureika in Higashi-Azabu, the Original Roppongi Location, or Amber Palace at the Palace Hotel (Also check out Wadakura and the other Japanese venues within Wadakura). I also stand by my recommendation of Hei Feung Terrace, notwithstanding comments from detractors of the restaurant upthread. If your previous experience with Chinese food has mostly been in the US, you will undoubtedly be very pleased with these restaurants or virtually any other well regarded Chinese restaurant in Tokyo.

As you have breakfast included in you rate at FS Marunouchi, I think it makes little sense to go elsewhere for breakfast.

I respectfully disagree here. I have not suggested that anyone tolerate subpar food, and do not think anyone else has either. No rational argument can be made that all Chinese food in Tokyo is sub-par.

I agree with this view.

As a reality check, according to the OP's description of her past experience with Chinese food, it is safe to assume that she has no experience whatsoever with high-end Cantonese cuisine. Any of the better Chinese restaurants in Tokyo will be more than adequate as an introduction to this type of food. Location is totally irrelevant for the OP's purposes at this stage.