If you are set on Japanese food, then I second LapLap's suggestion to get out of the city. Even the good Japanese restaurants in hotels here do not really have a "special occasion" atmosphere; they tend to be cramped and hurried (perhaps I have just not been to the right ones). Best bet is to go out to a hot spring somewhere and have a massive kaiseki dinner there.

You might want to think about ShabuShabu at Seryna or Zakuro. You don't find it much outside of Japan and it's usually very popular with foreigners (if you like beef). There are a lot of other.

The suggestions for kaiseki are good too, but for me, my reaction immediately after my first experience with kaiseki (a very long dinner with 20 courses) was "What the **** was that? My knees are killing me and I'm still starving." It's a bit of an acquired taste.

I remember having Kaiseki for the first time at my hotel the evening I first arrived in Japan, and I really loved it.

I have never eaten a kaiseki meal kneeling down. Even in private tatami dining rooms there is often a table with chairs, or a "foot well" that allows one to sit in a normal position. At a hotel restaurant, the meal will either be served at a table or counter with chairs. A meal does take a relatively long time, but often includes far fewer than twenty courses.

For the OP: the 2013 Michelin guides were not printed in English, so they became available online. No need to use an old paper guide. http://gm.gnavi.co.jp/restaurant/list/tokyo

One of my favorite restaurants (I went there first not knowing that they just got their first star in 2011) is considered Japanese Contemporary. It serves multi-course (6-7) meals that are strictly Japanese but some things are very innovative.

Esaki is a well-known kaiseki restaurant that is reasonably priced and has 3 michelin stars. The latter is a mystery to me but it's a good restaurant; ate there once but not compelled to return. I think it deserves 1 star at most, but I think most of the Michelin ratings in Tokyo are way over-rated (as are the US ratings). I also think that sushi restaurants should never get more than 1 star.

No. Personally, I'd use it as a guide of places to avoid.

Great thread!

Has anyone been to Sushi Kanesaka, either the one at Ginza or in the Palace Hotel? Is it a good choice? The concierges at 3 different hotels where I'll be staying in Tokyo have all recommended it as one of their top choices for sushi. Is the one at the Palace as good as the Ginza one?

Also, is Nodaiwa for eel the best choice? Again, they all recommend it. When we used to stay at Grand Hyatt Tokyo, we always went to Yaotoku (now apparently called Unagi-Toku) and loved it. Anyone able to compare to Nodaiwa?

Yes, the entire Kanesaka group is excellent. My favorite is Mao at the Seiyo Ginza, which will be reopening in another location after the hotel has closed (perhaps under a new name, but otherwise unchanged). I prefer Mao to the honten because it has an even nicer atmosphere and it is easier to get a reservation, but it is a bit more expensive. You will not be disappointed by Kanesaka at the Palace hotel either.

I like Nodaiwa.

Don't like Kanesaka or other sushi restaurants of its ilk. I am not surprised that concierges would recommend it. (What do they know? Do they get a cut?) The prices stated in the Michelin guide or wherever are not correct. They charged up to 60k a person when I went there.

A few weeks ago I stumbled across a mom and pop eel place in Kagurazaka and it was pretty good. It was actually an yakitori and eel joint. I think the bill was like 7k for two people.

Hmmmm? Without intending to set off another round of controversy, I personally don't really consider it kaiseki if a) you get it at a hotel, b) you're sitting in a chair, c) any of the courses contain quadruped (other than rabbit), and/or d) quite a few others things.

Anybody else have an opinion on this subject?

Why?? (BTW - I kind of agree, but I'd like to know your thinking on this).

This is not a matter of opinion. It is a fact that at many of the finest Japanese restaurants kaiseki is eaten at counter seats or in private rooms with either chairs or a recessed "foot well" type of seating. I have only had to kneel down for meals at Ryokan, and this is one of the reasons I prefer western style hotels. I am looking forward to the Ritz-Carlton and Four Seasons properties planned for Kyoto.

Re hotels, I also disagree with your above statement, as some hotels have exceptional restaurants. I recommended the Palace in my above post because the food is very good, and because such restaurants are very approachable for people new to Japanese cuisine and who may not speak Japanese.

I don't understand where your comment about quadruped came from, but I would generally agree. Some chefs who take a more contemporary approach to Japanse cuisine do however serve charcoal grilled wagyu as part of kaiseki meals, and it can be delicious.

I don't think that Michelin should rate Japanese restaurants at all. To me the ratings are next to useless, so I disregard them.

Many european restaurants in Japan are also overrated. A Basque in Aoyama is a prime example of this - it is a nice restaurant, but by no means would it be awarded a Michelin star if it were in Europe.

I don't disagree that
1) Some hotels have exceptional restaurants.
2) Hotel restaurants are very approachable
3) Charcoal grilled wagyu is delicious
4) Food can be exceptionally good at these restaurants

But IMHO, it's not really kaiseki. There's probably some official Japanese rule book (maybe not published) on this, but my sense is that there are certain elemental aspects to kaiseki including the type of cuisine, ingredients, seasonality, locality, tableware, decor, etc. This may just be a personal bias or personal experience, but I don't think of it as real kaiseki if it's served on paper plates or to diners sitting in "high" chairs, etc.

Even if the food is the same as kaiseki, it doesn't necessarily make it kaiseki.

I have probably mentioned it here before but I don't think there is enough creativity and even "cooking" involved in sushi to warrant comparison to haute cuisine or Japanese haute cuisine for that matter. I think they could award 1 star to the best restaurants; the ones that receive 3 stars today.

You see this for wagyu. The top steak houses get one star. In both cases we could say that they offer the best ingredients and therefore get the single star.

Since sushi means sour rice then, yes, the rice preparation is important and distinguishes top sushi as well but I don't put this in the category of haute cuisine.

Re Abasque. I looked at that place since it is in my neighborhood and it got its star in recent years. (I typically look for new Michelin restaurants.) I was indeed mystified why that type of food gets a star.

I recently went to a new French one star, Liberte a Table de Takeda. I thought it was good and maybe deserved a star. But if you compare to, for example, Hostellerie de Levernois in Beaune (one star) then no way. I think this latter restaurant might even deserve two by French standards.

p.s. 5K, I guess you don't consider Esaki to be kaiseki. I think they refer to themselves as contemporary kaiseki.

Gnaget,
I tend to agree with you. There's a lot of technique but not that much creativity or variety. (Probably get some dissent on this).

Also I don't really think of going for sushi the same way I think of going to a really fine restaurant. It's more like the local joint where you hang out. Find a place you like not too far away and just keep going back....not much need or interest in trying out anything new. You know them, they know you, fish is good, beer is cold. Once you get to a certain point, the flavor has a lot more to do with Neptune than with the chef.

I won't post again to debate semantics. Fine restaurants have all kinds of different decors, seating arrangements, and styles of tableware. In conversation most Japanese people I know would usually refer this type of food simply as washoku.

http://www.newotani.co.jp/en/tokyo/r...nka/index.html

http://www.seiyo-ginza.com/kitcho.aspx
My favorite restaurant in Kyoto is Gion Suetomo. Notice the black table and chairs in the private dining room, where I have eaten several times. http://gion-suetomo.jp/

http://kyotonanba.com/from-the-owner-chef-namba/
http://kyotonanba.com/seating-choice/

All of it is definitely washoku, but kaiseki is a very small specialized sub-set of washoku and IME kaiseki is a lot more than just the food. Don't really think it's only a question of semantics, but I'm sure there are different opinions on what qualifies as real (本物) kaiseki. I'm not at all sure my opinion on this is consistent with what good Japanese chefs would say, but this thread has piqued my curiosity on the subject so I'll pose the question at some Japanese restaurants and see what other people have to say.

BTW - Been to all the restaurants except Suetomo. I'll try it next time I'm in Kyoto. Interesting they have pictures of their toilet on the website. It looks like a modern version of some antique porcelain urinals I have seen.

Judging from what you said here - I read your message wrong (and didn't take it in humor). Apology for whatever implications I read into it (apparently incorrectly) accepted. Robyn

Thank you for the link (I already had it but perhaps others may not know about it).

FWIW - I still find the old 2012 print edition useful for restaurant information. Like hours/days of operation. Addresses. Whether or not credit cards are accepted. Etc. Also - there are lists of things - like restaurants open on Sundays - those with late dining - etc. I think I picked up my copy on Amazon new for about $10. Certainly a reasonable $10 investment.

I have organized our main meal lunch dining on "flash cards". Before anyone laughs - there are certain types of meals we want to have - certain categories. Like tempura one day - kaiseki the next - sushi - French - etc. Each flash card has a tentative list of restaurants in that category. With notes - and locations (because some decisions will be made on what part of town we will be in in terms of sightseeing).

I've put Esaki in the "Kaiseki/traditional Japanese" category - along with places like Kikunoi - Ginza Okudu and similar. Kikunoi is now at the top of my list in that category for a variety of (subjective) reasons.

FWIW - I also have a couple of flash cards for informal dinner places (mostly near our hotel). Also a whole one devoted to places for sweets (the people in Tokyo seem to love sweets - and so do I :)).

Note that I'm using Michelin mostly as an "approximate" guide of higher end places to eat in Japan on this trip. Not as the be all and end all. Because I - like most people - like some foods a whole lot better than others. I could have the best pork dish in the whole world - but I wouldn't like it nearly as much as the best quail dish in the whole world - because I like quail a whole lot better than I like pork. The best meal I ever had - on a personal level - wasn't at the best restaurant in the world. It's just that the 3 courses I had were basically perfect renditions of 3 of my favorite foods.

Also - when it comes to Tokyo - how can anyone deal with 100,000+ restaurants in a rational way? Michelin narrows it down to maybe 200-300. Which is more than any normal person who can't read Japanese can deal with. In terms of our (light) dinners (if and when we're awake for them) - we'll poke around the hotel and see what looks interesting.

What is the restaurant you didn't name that you said is one of your favorites?

I agree with you about sushi restaurants. I forget exactly what Chef Jiro Ono said about his restaurant - but it was pretty much along the lines of he didn't do much of anything except slice and arrange almost perfect fish on top of rice - and he didn't see the big deal. I can - as someone buys fish - understand the big deal when it comes to selecting/buying - and slicing - and the rice part is a mystery to me. OTOH - I'm not going to put even the best sushi up there in terms of the world's great cuisines (which it seems is your POV too). Robyn

P.S. I agree with you about Michelin ratings in the US.

We ate here:

http://www.granviakyoto.com/dining/kitcho.html

Hotel and chairs.

Can't prove it by me one way or the other in terms of authenticity - but we were the only western people dining there the night we dined. Perhaps the mostly Japanese clientele were "hicks from the sticks"?

Note that there was nothing on the menu that in any way resembled anything that seemed like meat. Might have been a little fish (can't recall).

In terms of the seating - Japan is an aging country. My husband and I are late middle-aged (mid-60's). I think that tatami mat seating is becoming basically out of the question for a large part of the (older) Japanese population. It's certainly out of the question for my husband - and I'll be getting there any day now. Unless these restaurants are really popular with 20 and 30 somethings - and the restaurants can afford to alienate their older customers - they have to provide seating that older people can use. Robyn

Not sure if I can describe this properly but let me make a few points.

Japanese dining (as opposed to eating) can be a an experience that goes way beyond the cuisine.

I think it takes a long time to learn to appreciate it. (Or at least it did in my case). Nevertheless it is worth the effort since it can touch something very deep and profound within us.

There is something very relaxing and intimate about eating on tatami.

If you eat all you meals on the floor. Within a week or two, your body will start to be become stronger and much more limber and you will feel better.

If you're not up to the effort, you can try using zaisu or finding a restaurant with horikotatsu.

(I hope I don't sound like one of those nutcases who romanticizes Japan).

One other thing, I think you would enjoy a little untethered exploration. Pick an area like Ginza or Akasaka and spend a couple of hours in the afternoon poking your head into various restaurants. At first you probably won't be able to tell what's a restaurant, but after a while you'll get some appreciation for Japanese restaurants and maybe find some place you want to eat. Be patient, smile a lot and you'll be fine.

I don't think you're a "nutcase". I just wonder how old you are - and if you have any disabilities. My husband is 68 and has secondary progressive MS (it's the kind of MS that many people who had relapsing-remitting MS when they were young adults get when they get older). He uses a big leg brace and a cane to walk. Eating on the floor is super out of the question for him. I have always been kind of flexible - and still am (especially for my age). But I prefer to dine with my husband - not alone :).

Japan is an increasingly aging country - and I suspect my husband is not alone in terms of lacking the flexibility to dine on mats on the floor. I would like to try stuff like this. He can't do it. End of story.

We intend 100% to wander around untethered for probably 50% of our dining or so. On our first trip - we found we missed out dining at places we would have liked to try because we didn't make reservations in advance. So it will pretty much be a combination of "this" and "that" on this trip. Robyn

P.S. My husband has tried yoga and similar at our local Y to try to increase flexibility. Doesn't help (especially because his MS has resulted in his having no ACL in one of his legs - it tore into little tiny bits as a result of MS related muscle weakness). I do agree that in the absence of a physical disability like this - for most people - the more you try to be flexible - the more flexible you'll be (I sit in a decent lotus position for 30 minutes at least once a day - I find it's pretty comfortable). Robyn

Bad knees here, but I find it helps to keep trying. You husband could probably sit very comfortably at a horikotatsu, but he might need help getting in and out.

correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt the older population in japan be more accustomed to "traditional" seating than the younger population? (i do mean comfortable, as in growing up with it and knowing exactly how to do it.)

robyng has valid points. if there are "cant miss" and "best" and "unique" restaurants, one should visit while they are good, and if one has a limited time in a place (and is not there all the time) one must do SOME planning. and as mentioned there are categories, genres, dishes, formats, etc. also not just "planning" but prioritizing.

We dined at places with a horikotatsu last trip. Don't know what the story will be this trip.

BTW - if anyone knows - Ive seen pictures of the counter at Kikunoi - and it's hard to tell from those pictures whether the seating is "mats on the floor" - or "horikotatsu". Does anyone know (if not - I'll send an email to the hotel concierge). Robyn

I think "more accustomed to" and "enjoying" might be 2 separate things. For example - we saw a fair number of older somewhat disabled people struggling up and down lots of stairs in some subway stations with no disabled facilities on our first trip. I'm sure the people were accustomed to it - but I suspect they would have preferred an easier way to get up and down the stairs. Anyway - there are a huge number of restaurants in Tokyo - and I'm sure we'll find ones where we'll be comfortable :). Robyn

Kikunoi in Tokyo has very comfortable seating, either on chairs at the counter or at regular tables. Kikunoi Roan in Kyoto you know about ;) Sorry I don't know about the main branch in Kyoto, but your hotel certainly will.

Sorry, I was there last year but can't remember.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...lin-stars.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...ncy-kyoto.html

http://www.kevineats.com/2012/08/index-of-posts.html

as a non-foodie, i will certainly look at pics of food
would rarely if ever take pic of food myself
(specific description of food is also helpful to me)
(for ordering a la carte)

Do you recall whether you enjoyed your meal at Kikunoi? That's the most important thing IMO. Robyn

I'm not sure that being a "foodie" - especially a western "foodie" - has anything to do with understanding or liking Japanese cuisine - or cuisines in other Asian cultures. I'm also not sure I agree with 5khours about dining on mats as being an essential part of the experience (especially if one can't physically "get down" on one of those mats).

But - for example - texture plays a much more important role in Japanese and Chinese food than it does in most western foods. I don't know how long it would take me to appreciate "texture" in the cuisine of a particular culture. All I know is it's probably more time than I will ever spend consuming the cuisine of that culture. Still - when I get a chance to explore texture oriented dishes - I will. At least a little. And say to myself - maybe next time I'll "get it". Robyn

We'll only be in Tokyo this trip.

Did we in fact dine at Kikunoi Roan in Kyoto? The images aren't familiar to me - but it wouldn't surprise me if a restaurant has been remodeled after 7 years. And I was too dumb to save a menu or business card <smacking head>.

And could you do me a favor (in public if the TOS allow it - or privately if they don't). My home page is ighome now (successor to my iGoogle home page - which will be out of business later this year). I've done the RSS feeds for Food Sake Tokyo on my home page (very easy) - and Tokyo Food File (Japan Times) too (somewhat harder to link). But I still haven't been been able to link your RSS feed. Having the RSS feed would make it easier to follow :).

FWIW - to English speaking people planning to dine in Tokyo - these are active and informative feeds IMO. Robyn

Yes. One of my most enjoyable meals ever. The food was OK....not outstanding, but I was dining with my wife, a sister, a daughter and a charming geiko so it was a wonderful evening.

Is there a restaurant of this type in Tokyo where you thought the food was better (my husband will only have one woman to dine with and amuse him - me - not four - so the food is more important ;)? Robyn

We ate at Akasaka Kikunoi last night. We had counter seats, but the table seating is horikotatsu. The presentation was gorgeous, but I found the actual taste of many dishes too subtle for my palate. There were some sticky and slimy textures without much taste and found the red sea bream sashimi a bit tough. Other dishes were very tasty but nothing mind blowing. Service was good, but not what I'm accustomed to eating at Western style high end restaurants, with all the staff loudly welcoming and thanking the guests. Maybe I was expecting something more intimate like some small high end sushi places.

Price was 50k JPY for two with a bottle of water and 2 drinks. Fine for a special occasion, but don't have the resources or desire to spend this much every day of my vacation. There is so much tasty food at lower end restaurants to try as well.

Kyoto Tsuruya @ The Peninsula - good?
 

Any opinions of this restaurant? I'm staying at the Peninsula in early July, and am wondering if it would be worth checking out this restaurant or if I could get something better elsewhere for the same (or lower) price.

How might it compare to Wadakura at the Palace Hotel?

Would either of these be good choices for a 'special occasion' birthday dinner for a first-time visitor to Tokyo and non-Japanese speaker? Ukai Toriyama was recommended previously, but I'm not sure I want to go that far out of town, especially since I'm only there two full days.

Thanks for your advice.

Go for Wadakura. Tsuruya at the Peninsula is forgettable, and for the money there are far better options.

Thanks! :)

Thoughts on Tokyo Shiba Tofuya-Ukai? Kondo or Ten-Icihi?
 

Sorry for so many questions, but with such an array of restaurants in Tokyo, I really appreciate getting insights from those who are more familiar with them, and am wondering if anyone might be willing to share their impressions of the restaurants above.

Seems like Tofuya-Ukai might be an interesting place for both food and atmosphere - perhaps a good in-town compromise instead of Ukai Toriyama (I know the food styles are different) that's still good for an 'occasion' meal?

What about the other two for Tempura? Would Mikawa be a better bet than either? I've read that the Zezankyo may not be very accommodating for non-Japanese speakers - true?

Thanks, all

English apparently isn't spoken at Zezankyo (http://mikawa-zezankyo.jimdo.com/english-information/). But there doesn't seem to be any hostility towards English speaking people:

http://www.tinyurbankitchen.com/2012...o-tempura.html

It's also open on Sunday (Kondo isn't). Don't know if that makes a difference. Robyn