Oooh the Japanese make some killer bread, although they tend to go for the French style stuff. So you may have a harder time finding a good schwarzbrot, but you can certainly find an excellent baguette. Places to hit include Maison Kaiser, Dalloyau, and Viron (all three "branches" of French bakeries), but there are many others.

On the "southern style", that's a bit harder, although if you must insist, there's White Smoke in Azabu Juban. I think it is terribly overpriced for what they serve, and it caters mostly to rich expats who just have to have their fix. But kind of like eating sushi in NY: "did I just pay how much for what?"

WRT Narisawa - I thought the web site was somewhat over the top. In the "this dish will remind you of being in the forest with the moss floor" kind of way. Which is common in Scandinavia these days. We ate at Frantzen Lindeberg in September - supposed to be the 12th best restaurant in the world now (it got a promotion this year). It's not even the 12th best restaurant I've ever dined at - and I missed the whole Spanish thing (was in Spain before it was a "foodie" destination - and then spent 10+ years not traveling abroad for the most part due to health issues with/deaths of elderly parents).

Not that FL is a bad restaurant by any means. Some of the dishes are really great. But others are just so-so. Sometimes it seems to me that these newer restaurants don't know how to edit their menus - and serve the 5 or 6 things they make that are their absolute best (which is why they have 20+ course tasting menus). As someone who tends to run out of steam quickly when working my way through a long tasting menu - I would much appreciate some editing ("if I had more time - I'd write a shorter letter" kind of thing).

And at FL - 80+% of the diners were from Stockholm. Stockholm wasn't - as of last year - a popular "food destination" yet. At the 2 starred Michelin restaurants at our hotel - everyone except us was from Sweden - mostly locals and Swedish dentists (there was a national dental meeting in the hotel that week :)). I'd rather be surrounded by Swedish dentists than New York "foodies" :D.

Still - the proof of the pudding is in the eating - not the website :D. When it comes to Narisawa - does anyone here have a different opinion of this restaurant?

Of the 3 restaurants you recommended - only Emun is open for lunch. I will have to try to read a little about it. Robyn

At least a dozen+ trips to Vancouver and San Francisco with good to excellent Chinese food. Also a few trips to Portland and Seattle - which also had some good Chinese food. And Los Angeles is no slouch these days either.

Have also dined a lot in New York. But - recently (like last decade) - I've found the Chinese food there inferior to that on the west coast. OTOH - I had my first dim sum ever at a pretty dumpy place in Chinatown NYC perhaps 40 years ago. This place:

http://nomwah.com/

Judging from the new website though - this place is probably now in the 21st century!

FWIW - your sense is correct. And it is not meant as an offense to anyone here who travels to Japan and enjoys some Chinese meals there. I just have a different "shopping list" on this trip. Robyn

I meant bread in restaurants - with great butter too <yum>. I'll buy chocolates for my hotel room - but not bread :). So far - I have one French restaurant on my list - Joel Robuchon. If L'Osier looks like it will reopen by September - I'll consider that as well. Just writing this is killing me. I've been on a diet since last November - and have lost 13 pounds - almost 10% of my body weight! OTOH - during our first trip to Japan - my husband and I both lost weight (unusual for a vacation). Combination of a lot fat low calorie diet and a heck of a lot of walking.

I feel competent to judge French food. French food and I go way back (to Robuchon's Jamin in Paris when it had one Michelin star - and all 3 incarnations of Senderens' restaurants). Do you or anyone else here have a favorite in Tokyo?

I looked up White Smoke. And it's not our SE United States food. It's Texas BBQ. A very distinct kind of BBQ in the US. Beef (fatty brisket the best) cooked low and slow over long brick smokers. I'm not sure how how anyone could do smokers like this in Tokyo (and didn't find any pictures). Here's some of what I had to say about Texas BBQ:

http://mouthfulsfood.com/forums/inde...art-texas-bbq/

Robyn

Now, now, deep breaths. a re-read of what I posted would seem to clarify the point for you.

To expand......

I will and do happily eat Italian food as offered in Japan but realize that it is an adaptation of what I eat when in Italy. There is nothing wrong with that. But if I were seeking Italian food that equaled that found in Italy, yes, I would be accepting sub-par food.

Chinese food adapted as it has been in Jaapn is often quite pleasing also. It is not equal in any way to the food I ate for the three years I lived in Shanghai though.

As for Pinot, that is perhaps my area of greatest expertise, yielding on the food front in large part to Pickles.

Romanée-Conti is indeed great wine and Burgundy is the hands down standard for the wine made from Pinot Noir. I do however relish the wines of the Macedon Ranges, those of Tasmania, those of Oregon, and of course the various offerings from the various AVA in CA. All except those from Burgundy are trying to be Burgundy. Bit if one accepts that other expressions of the same fruit can create wine pleasingly similar yet different, one can enjoy the permutations without believing they are replicating the original.

As for the Supermarket point, to equate the supermarkets of Japan and their product range and role in a typical shopper's life to those found in America is simply an attempt to be argumentative as it is both inaccurate and inappropriate.

Perhaps that answers your question?

Fonda has slid. I wait until I get to CA these days. Love affair with the gourmet ghetto of the Mission in the City. Tacos in HK. That I have to try!

No it doesn't. Define what you mean by an adaptation. Does this just mean it's different? Is it an adaptation if the chef chooses to make a dish differently on a random Friday night. Is it an adaptation if a chef in Firenze makes a Genovesan dish using the same recipe and ingredients. What about if an Italian chef makes the dish in Tokyo. Etc. Etc. Ultimately your argument boils down to a tautology... if it's not made in Italy, it's not Italian.

And what do you mean by "not equal in any way?" Do you mean inferior? Do you mean less good? Do you mean you personally don't like it as much?

I think you would be very hard pressed to reliably distinguish between Italian food cooked by an Italian and Italian food cooked by a skilled Japanese chef. Same for French. Same for Chinese.

This is not to say that there are not some distinctive Japanese adaptations to various cuisines, but to somehow relegate all food cooked out of it's home country (particularly in Japan) as being un-authentic and sub-par is IMHO just way off the mark.

Sorry for not being very clear in my post. But I was specifically looking for Wagyu Beef Steak, and I noticed from my Google search that Steakhouse Hama is a Teppanyaki restaurant? I was looking more for a steakhouse experience rather than the Wagyu Beef being served in Teppanyaki form.

With regards to Karubi, I find the way it is served in Japan is distinctive enough to differentiate it with the way Korean restaurants serve it. And in Korea it is known as Gahl-bi. In Japan, the Karubi is grilled and served with sesame or ponzu dipping sauces, while in Korea they are served with bean sauces. Even the cut of the beef varies to a certain extent.

I feel that perhaps the message was clear but for some unknown reason there is a desire to dog the point. OK. I will give it another stab.

Taking your questions one by one:

“Define what you mean by an adaptation”

I mean adaptation. Something based on the original that is different in execution due to individual tastes, ingredients, methods etc.

You are incorrect in assuming however that there is an argument made to the tautology you cite. There is a statement of opinion that food seeking to be identical to the original is different enough that it is either taken on its merits as an adaptation (or perhaps evolution of a dish is an easier way to look at it) or it is a sub-par version of what would be better prepared in its place of origin.


“And what do you mean by "not equal in any way?" Do you mean inferior? Do you mean less good? Do you mean you personally don't like it as much?”

I mean it is less than the original. i.e, “not equal". Does that make it less appealing to any given individual? Well I would have to poll all people to discern that. I simply state the opinion that, as mentioned in the preceding paragraph, “it is a sub-par version of what would be better prepared in its place of origin”. It is my contention that Chinese food prepared in China is in every way (except in terms of purity or quality of ingredients) superior to that sold in Japan. Just an opinion based on empirical evidence. Agree or not it is my contention.


The following two points remind me of an often held discussion about wine.

“I think you would be very hard pressed to reliably distinguish between Italian food cooked by an Italian and Italian food cooked by a skilled Japanese chef. Same for French. Same for Chinese. “


I or my peers would in many cases be able to discern a difference. IS that the rare case and not the norm? Sure it is. I would even go so far as to say try it all. Like what you like and dismiss the rest. Rely on your palate and not borders.


and

”This is not to say that there are not some distinctive Japanese adaptations to various cuisines, but to somehow relegate all food cooked out of it's home country (particularly in Japan) as being un-authentic and sub-par is IMHO just way off the mark.”

We could be discussing Champagne vs. Sparkling Wine here. The same concept applies. If it is not from Champagne it can only ever be sparkling wine. Is it sub-par? That is a value judgment. Is it authentic Champagne? No it most certainly is not. The facts are incontrovertible.

MJM. So basically, if I eat Italian food in Japan, it's either not real Italian or it's inferior to Italian food prepared in Italy?

As for Champagne, that's simply a legal definition. You can make up a definition for Italian food which defines it as food prepared in Italy and then by your definition, there is no such thing as authentic Italian food in Japan, but that doesn't tell you anything about how it tastes. (And I'm not disputing that the terroir can have an impact on taste, but I don't think it's a very useful criteria for making broad generalizations about the entirety of the cuisine of a particular county.

And I'd be curious as to what your hypothesis is for the inferior quality of food prepared in Japan when attempting to be authentic. Does this just apply to Japanese chefs or does it also apply to Italian chefs working in Japan. Perhaps it's the cooking implements. Or maybe it's the purity and quality of ingredients (oh no you already said that wasn't the problem). Maybe it's the ether.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or pedantic. I just think you're wrong. Sure the best Italian restaurant is in Italy. Maybe the 10 best are in Italy. But there are loads of Italian restaurants in Tokyo that are better than 99.9% of all restaurants in Italy.

And for one last time:

MJM. So basically, if I eat Italian food in Japan, it's either not real Italian or it's inferior to Italian food prepared in Italy?

It is substitute. No value judgment involved. Now the same question has been asked and answered a few times, let us move on. The thread is not simply for you ask again and again what this or that means.

As for Champagne, that's simply a legal definition. You can make up a definition for Italian food which defines it as food prepared in Italy and then by your definition, there is no such thing as authentic Italian food in Japan, but that doesn't tell you anything about how it tastes. (And I'm not disputing that the terroir can have an impact on taste, but I don't think it's a very useful criteria for making broad generalizations about the entirety of the cuisine of a particular county.

The argument that food of a style originating elsewhere tastes less good is not the point I have made or addressed. Your new point raised here is valid and I accept that much food which by its strictest definition is not authentic in terms of its origin elsewhere, is very very good indeed.

And I'd be curious as to what your hypothesis is for the inferior quality of food prepared in Japan when attempting to be authentic. Does this just apply to Japanese chefs or does it also apply to Italian chefs working in Japan. Perhaps it's the cooking implements. Or maybe it's the purity and quality of ingredients (oh no you already said that wasn't the problem). Maybe it's the ether.

I make no such statement. You do, unnecessarily sarcastically too. I state that sub-par is applied to trying to duplicate overseas items, not with respect to the taste of what is produced as an adaptation. In fact in many cases due to the vegetables, spices, oils, or main ingredient used I prefer the version produced here. That still does not make it more than an adaptation.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or pedantic. I just think you're wrong. Sure the best Italian restaurant is in Italy. Maybe the 10 best are in Italy. But there are loads of Italian restaurants in Tokyo that are better than 99.9% of all restaurants in Italy.

You seek not to be but have achieved being both. We are all entitled to our own value judgments and opinions. Mine happen to rather stricter in definition than yours it would seem from what I have read. Try the concept of live and let live. Not all people share your opinions or tastes. I would suggest that that very fact, when discussed without sarcasm and in a more civilized manner, makes the whole spectrum of possibilities so much fun to discuss and enjoy.

:)

I'd rather eat at the Wedholms Fisk 10 times in a row than one dinner at Narisawa.

I actually prefer Wagyu done at Teppanyaki, but if you want it cooked more like a steak, you could try the Oak Door at the Hyatt or Decanter at the American Club. If you want someplace a little cheaper you could try Beacon or Tableaux. If you want to pay through the teeth try Aragawa or Dons.

For Japanese style Korean, I almost always go to Sankoen in the Juban....mostly out of habit and the kids like it.

Good to have gotten that straightened out and to now be in complete agreement. ;)

ONLY ITALIAN FOOD IS ITALIAN!!!!!

There, we said it.