I won't post again to debate semantics. Fine restaurants have all kinds of different decors, seating arrangements, and styles of tableware. In conversation most Japanese people I know would usually refer this type of food simply as washoku.

http://www.newotani.co.jp/en/tokyo/r...nka/index.html

http://www.seiyo-ginza.com/kitcho.aspx
My favorite restaurant in Kyoto is Gion Suetomo. Notice the black table and chairs in the private dining room, where I have eaten several times. http://gion-suetomo.jp/

http://kyotonanba.com/from-the-owner-chef-namba/
http://kyotonanba.com/seating-choice/

All of it is definitely washoku, but kaiseki is a very small specialized sub-set of washoku and IME kaiseki is a lot more than just the food. Don't really think it's only a question of semantics, but I'm sure there are different opinions on what qualifies as real (本物) kaiseki. I'm not at all sure my opinion on this is consistent with what good Japanese chefs would say, but this thread has piqued my curiosity on the subject so I'll pose the question at some Japanese restaurants and see what other people have to say.

BTW - Been to all the restaurants except Suetomo. I'll try it next time I'm in Kyoto. Interesting they have pictures of their toilet on the website. It looks like a modern version of some antique porcelain urinals I have seen.

Judging from what you said here - I read your message wrong (and didn't take it in humor). Apology for whatever implications I read into it (apparently incorrectly) accepted. Robyn

Thank you for the link (I already had it but perhaps others may not know about it).

FWIW - I still find the old 2012 print edition useful for restaurant information. Like hours/days of operation. Addresses. Whether or not credit cards are accepted. Etc. Also - there are lists of things - like restaurants open on Sundays - those with late dining - etc. I think I picked up my copy on Amazon new for about $10. Certainly a reasonable $10 investment.

I have organized our main meal lunch dining on "flash cards". Before anyone laughs - there are certain types of meals we want to have - certain categories. Like tempura one day - kaiseki the next - sushi - French - etc. Each flash card has a tentative list of restaurants in that category. With notes - and locations (because some decisions will be made on what part of town we will be in in terms of sightseeing).

I've put Esaki in the "Kaiseki/traditional Japanese" category - along with places like Kikunoi - Ginza Okudu and similar. Kikunoi is now at the top of my list in that category for a variety of (subjective) reasons.

FWIW - I also have a couple of flash cards for informal dinner places (mostly near our hotel). Also a whole one devoted to places for sweets (the people in Tokyo seem to love sweets - and so do I :)).

Note that I'm using Michelin mostly as an "approximate" guide of higher end places to eat in Japan on this trip. Not as the be all and end all. Because I - like most people - like some foods a whole lot better than others. I could have the best pork dish in the whole world - but I wouldn't like it nearly as much as the best quail dish in the whole world - because I like quail a whole lot better than I like pork. The best meal I ever had - on a personal level - wasn't at the best restaurant in the world. It's just that the 3 courses I had were basically perfect renditions of 3 of my favorite foods.

Also - when it comes to Tokyo - how can anyone deal with 100,000+ restaurants in a rational way? Michelin narrows it down to maybe 200-300. Which is more than any normal person who can't read Japanese can deal with. In terms of our (light) dinners (if and when we're awake for them) - we'll poke around the hotel and see what looks interesting.

What is the restaurant you didn't name that you said is one of your favorites?

I agree with you about sushi restaurants. I forget exactly what Chef Jiro Ono said about his restaurant - but it was pretty much along the lines of he didn't do much of anything except slice and arrange almost perfect fish on top of rice - and he didn't see the big deal. I can - as someone buys fish - understand the big deal when it comes to selecting/buying - and slicing - and the rice part is a mystery to me. OTOH - I'm not going to put even the best sushi up there in terms of the world's great cuisines (which it seems is your POV too). Robyn

P.S. I agree with you about Michelin ratings in the US.

We ate here:

http://www.granviakyoto.com/dining/kitcho.html

Hotel and chairs.

Can't prove it by me one way or the other in terms of authenticity - but we were the only western people dining there the night we dined. Perhaps the mostly Japanese clientele were "hicks from the sticks"?

Note that there was nothing on the menu that in any way resembled anything that seemed like meat. Might have been a little fish (can't recall).

In terms of the seating - Japan is an aging country. My husband and I are late middle-aged (mid-60's). I think that tatami mat seating is becoming basically out of the question for a large part of the (older) Japanese population. It's certainly out of the question for my husband - and I'll be getting there any day now. Unless these restaurants are really popular with 20 and 30 somethings - and the restaurants can afford to alienate their older customers - they have to provide seating that older people can use. Robyn

Not sure if I can describe this properly but let me make a few points.

Japanese dining (as opposed to eating) can be a an experience that goes way beyond the cuisine.

I think it takes a long time to learn to appreciate it. (Or at least it did in my case). Nevertheless it is worth the effort since it can touch something very deep and profound within us.

There is something very relaxing and intimate about eating on tatami.

If you eat all you meals on the floor. Within a week or two, your body will start to be become stronger and much more limber and you will feel better.

If you're not up to the effort, you can try using zaisu or finding a restaurant with horikotatsu.

(I hope I don't sound like one of those nutcases who romanticizes Japan).

One other thing, I think you would enjoy a little untethered exploration. Pick an area like Ginza or Akasaka and spend a couple of hours in the afternoon poking your head into various restaurants. At first you probably won't be able to tell what's a restaurant, but after a while you'll get some appreciation for Japanese restaurants and maybe find some place you want to eat. Be patient, smile a lot and you'll be fine.

I don't think you're a "nutcase". I just wonder how old you are - and if you have any disabilities. My husband is 68 and has secondary progressive MS (it's the kind of MS that many people who had relapsing-remitting MS when they were young adults get when they get older). He uses a big leg brace and a cane to walk. Eating on the floor is super out of the question for him. I have always been kind of flexible - and still am (especially for my age). But I prefer to dine with my husband - not alone :).

Japan is an increasingly aging country - and I suspect my husband is not alone in terms of lacking the flexibility to dine on mats on the floor. I would like to try stuff like this. He can't do it. End of story.

We intend 100% to wander around untethered for probably 50% of our dining or so. On our first trip - we found we missed out dining at places we would have liked to try because we didn't make reservations in advance. So it will pretty much be a combination of "this" and "that" on this trip. Robyn

P.S. My husband has tried yoga and similar at our local Y to try to increase flexibility. Doesn't help (especially because his MS has resulted in his having no ACL in one of his legs - it tore into little tiny bits as a result of MS related muscle weakness). I do agree that in the absence of a physical disability like this - for most people - the more you try to be flexible - the more flexible you'll be (I sit in a decent lotus position for 30 minutes at least once a day - I find it's pretty comfortable). Robyn

Bad knees here, but I find it helps to keep trying. You husband could probably sit very comfortably at a horikotatsu, but he might need help getting in and out.

correct me if im wrong, but wouldnt the older population in japan be more accustomed to "traditional" seating than the younger population? (i do mean comfortable, as in growing up with it and knowing exactly how to do it.)

robyng has valid points. if there are "cant miss" and "best" and "unique" restaurants, one should visit while they are good, and if one has a limited time in a place (and is not there all the time) one must do SOME planning. and as mentioned there are categories, genres, dishes, formats, etc. also not just "planning" but prioritizing.

We dined at places with a horikotatsu last trip. Don't know what the story will be this trip.

BTW - if anyone knows - Ive seen pictures of the counter at Kikunoi - and it's hard to tell from those pictures whether the seating is "mats on the floor" - or "horikotatsu". Does anyone know (if not - I'll send an email to the hotel concierge). Robyn

I think "more accustomed to" and "enjoying" might be 2 separate things. For example - we saw a fair number of older somewhat disabled people struggling up and down lots of stairs in some subway stations with no disabled facilities on our first trip. I'm sure the people were accustomed to it - but I suspect they would have preferred an easier way to get up and down the stairs. Anyway - there are a huge number of restaurants in Tokyo - and I'm sure we'll find ones where we'll be comfortable :). Robyn

Kikunoi in Tokyo has very comfortable seating, either on chairs at the counter or at regular tables. Kikunoi Roan in Kyoto you know about ;) Sorry I don't know about the main branch in Kyoto, but your hotel certainly will.

Sorry, I was there last year but can't remember.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...lin-stars.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...ncy-kyoto.html

http://www.kevineats.com/2012/08/index-of-posts.html

as a non-foodie, i will certainly look at pics of food
would rarely if ever take pic of food myself
(specific description of food is also helpful to me)
(for ordering a la carte)

Do you recall whether you enjoyed your meal at Kikunoi? That's the most important thing IMO. Robyn