Pickles

Well, in peloton's Japan, a foreigner will clear out a pool or onsen, so it must a be different place from the one you and I are familiar with.

Back to the JL question, personally, I have not had anything as egregious as what happened to the OP, but I do think that JL FAs tend to be more "hands off" and not as forthcoming with things. I did notice that they would serve Japanese first in some instances (with, for example, the sleep suits, or the drinks) but they would eventually get to me. Not a big deal, but definitely noticeable. I can see how somebody may be miffed at this and view it as racist.

Their English generally stinks also, except perhaps for one of them out of the whole contingent, so I do think there is an element of scaredy-cat in their behavior, not necessarily racism.

sfvoyage

Yes, many girls the world over, not just in Japan, dream about being a FA, but there is a big difference between a young girl's (possibly passing) fantasy and the most respected job in society for females.

BTW, I read the same interesting NYT article, whose main point is that the attractiveness of a hostess job currently is due to the financial crisis and lack of other gainful employment opportunities in general.

As for the appeal of a FA's job in finding a rich husband, well, that is a very retro and age-old appeal, isn't it? (I know someone who found his FA wife on China Airlines while he was flying F for work and being served by her, back in the late 70's!) I think even to date, there is some element of this in the glamour of the job, especially for Asian carriers such as SQ. But, again, I wouldn't go as far as saying this makes the job the most respected in Japan, even as tradition-bound as the country still is.

atakam

Totally agree. I have been living in Tokyo for 10 years and can assure you that every parent will go for the doctor career over the FA.

Also discrimination might exist but not at the degree mentioned, I have a pretty normal life in Japan (started as graduate student, now high management exec). Usually what Japanese dislike (we see it as discrimination) is avoid trouble, i.e. real estate agents say that gaijins tend to be noisier, do not follow the recycle rules, make parties, etc. Some foreigners will rent a property intended for 4 people to live but actually you see 10 people living there (this is a no-no with Japanese).They don't need your business, so they just will tell you that certain properties are Japanese only.

If you follow the rules, life is ok in Japan.

Going back to the JL issue, agree with making a scene onboard and make them understand (and let other passengers know) that the FA is not doing her job properly. Under Japanese codes, other passengers will feel uncomfortable enjoying FC service if the "gaijin" passenger is not treated well. So the FA has to correct the mistake, otherwise might receive a massive chain reaction claim.

virmaior

Wrong, in kansai, Japanese people do this all the time. And I didn't book it. My brother who speaks zero japanese bought it at the train station because the machine was kind of confusing. (remember this is hyogo ken, not foreigner friendly tokyo).

virmaior

funny. my japanese friend was the one who escalated it. You must be a foreigner?

Guava

You wish... More likely than not, you will be told that you can't use the facility at all.

sfvoyage

Well, I don't know your Japanese friend, and I don't know enough about the circumstance that caused him or her to throw a tantrum - surely not a typical or acceptable behavior by Japanese standards - at that time and place. In any case, I don't understand why you said that I must be a foreigner. It is not about me, but about the behavior of your, hmmm, friend.

Guava

I guess you don't understand the Japanese culture well enough then. Many young women are not expected to hold very meanigful jobs until their marriage. Being a doctor is mostly a man's job, as such not many parents would actually aspire their daughters growing up to be doctors. That said, there is no shortage of female doctors opening clinic or making house calls, though, their career choice may or may not create some tension with their family ('s expectations) or even disapproved by peers. After all, many young women are expected to quit their job once they got married, at least those girls who are considered upright and "good" as opposed those young women who have 5 different colors in their hair, doesn't dress properly and etc. In Japan, occupation still has a very strong gender bias. FA is still primarily a female job and among the career choices for women, it is one of the more glamorous job and also pays very well, even relative to jobs held by men. The salaries of female FA could be higher than the average earning of a man, which is actually difficult to accomplish considering most of the high paying jobs are held by men.

Guava

While there is no national laws against discrimination, some Japanese metropolis such as Tokyo and Osaka do have some local anti-discrimination laws re: contract, employement and etc., not just re: nationality/race, on other things as well. City governments of major cities in Asia have quite a bit of say in how they manage things, unlike Europe and North America. The rule regarding foreigner is not so much a question of legal or not vs. how companies can get away with it and everyone is doing it. Therefore, the overall protection and recourse for foreigner is still fairly weak but in big cities, you do have more recourse if you want to pursue it however.

Guava

You realize Japan doesn't just consist of Tokyo just as New York is not representative of the United States, right?


If it has to come down to that, which is unfortunate, you must do what you need to do. My sister flew ANA full fare C class between NRT-TPE a few months ago, given that ANA and JAL publishes their menu in advance, she knew she wanted the Western meal choice as opposed to the Japanese meal. She informed the FA upon entering the cabin. When they started serving meals, some white caucassian gaijing man started to make noise and the FA came over to her and asked her a favor. "There is a passenger who refuses to eat Japanese meal, he said he can only eat the Western menu. Can you please do us a favor and take the Japaense meal in exchange for your Western selection." For which, she replied yes and happy to help, even though she strongly preferred the Western selection. Subsequently, the FA came back over and over to apologize and made sure she was alright. My sister wasn't too happy about not getting her preferred meal choice and I supppose she could have refused the FA's request for help. The FA pleaded with her perhaps because she is a woman whereas the business class cabin is virtually all men. Just beware though, your "complaint" may come at the expense of another pax's comfort.

Pickles

Meaning that more likely than not I would be told that I can't use the facility, or of the subset of facilities that don't accept foreigners, I would be told I can't use it as opposed to using it and clearing out the facility?

Flyingfox

In the (multiple) cases of foreigners "making a scene", or getting visibly angry, raising voices, or having a tantrum, the foreigner only ends up being looked upon by others around as a complete imbicile.
It will be you who will be shamed, not the target of the criticism.
Making a "ruckus" is not the way to get anything done in Japan.

The technique is to stay COOL AND CALM, do not raise your voice, but get the message across that you are not happy with the service, etc. Ask to see a senior person. Be direct but always POLITE.
Staying cool and collected will get you results, believe it. We have employed the technique for years and it works. The only place where it has not worked is at the Park Hyatt in Tokyo, but this hotel is hardly "Japanese" by most standards.

virmaior

No tantrum was involved by me or my friend. It was a coordinated action that merely involved us asking for a refund of 1200Y for an express fee that wasn't used. I went and asked first and he said "no", so my friend came by and asked again repeating the same talking points about my brother not knowing any Japanese. The employee initially tried to claim a no refund policy, but it turns out there is a refunds policy. Seconds later, we got our refund less 200Y which he couldn't refund.

I note you didn't answer my question about being foreign or not to Japan but only indicated you don't understand why I insinuate this. Simply put, your first comment and this one sound like you're pontificating about Japanese culture but don't know it very well. (Cf. the flight attendant thing -- it's not just popular like it is elsewhere, it's super popular even to the point of general illogic -- when I was there in 2004, I met a HS student who wanted to do that and still wants to that -- had it explained by a friend).

Yes, Japanese people are, by and large, quiet, but they are not exclusively so. Further, Kansai is a louder area renowned for Japanese who complain and barter in stores (and famous comedians).

Pickles

Just because it is "super popular" doesn't mean it is highly regarded. Hostessing is also "popular", and it isn't exactly the most "honorable" of professions, even if it pays well.

Why wouldn't it be popular? Free travel, see the world, glamorous (at least from the outside), and maybe meet some rich dude to marry?

virmaior

Park Hyatt hilton? that's not Japan.




I do agree with you that calm and polite is the best opening strategy and usually gets results. I'm quite certain however that it does not always work.

So the question is what do you do then?

The question of whether raising a scene works is whose position seems preposterous to the customers nearby.


It seems like I've been dramatically misunderstood here... see my immediately prior post for a description of the situation before you assume anything about tantrums.
First off, we were not angry. Second, my friend is not a foreigner (though I am). Third, I'll take his advice over yours.

Whether you look like a retarded foreigner and are subject to criticism depends on a number of factors. First, if you can't speak the language, you'll always take the heat. Second, if you are just angry, you will always take it. Third, if you violate Japanese taboos.